Atheism is not a default position

[Bunyip]

It can be in reference to the basic creation/interaction concept found in philosophy.

If you say so - seems pretty pointless to me. But if that is the definition you are using - I'm not an atheist ajd have no interest or desire in arguing for or against a position I neither hold nor reject.

Religion and specific Gods are only introduced once the basis of the philosophical concept has been established and accept. First cause arguments is a prime example of requiring no religion as a reference. It is only after this argument has been accept do people start combing through religion to see which match this first cause argument.

Sorry, but I really do not see the logic there.

You are taking a specific religion to God view not conceptual God. You are rejecting a theological God not the philosophical God. Atheism is about the concept of God not the religious specifics. This is putting the bull before the horn. Take the first cause argument above as an example. If I reject the first cause argument then I have no need in rejecting individual religions which lay claim to the first cause. One stone, many birds.



You agree on word games backed by no arguments. This is not rational.

Sorry, I am not following you.
Atheism is the disbelief in God, you seem to be trying to cantilever such a simple thing into something far more complex and opaque. The first cause argument is not relevant to atheism as I understand it - but if you think it is, please elaborate.

 

[Bunyip]

Shad

You say; However if as per my argument atheism is a position in relation to theism then one can be an agnostic atheist. They do not believe there is or will be knowledge of God but still rejection theism.

Yes, sure. Agreed.

 

[Thief]

Not having a cold is the default position until otherwise stated or inferred from evidence. Did you, by default, assume that I had a cold?

Oh yes of course.....thank you for the return....

Oddly enough, we walk about with the harmful things within....
the same things that will kill us if not for the default condition of good health.

Much like lacking belief.
It's all fine until we die.

Then that item of eternal life could fail....
for lack of belief.

 

[Bunyip]

Oh yes of course.....thank you for the return....

Oddly enough, we walk about with the harmful things within....
the same things that will kill us if not for the default condition of good health.

Much like lacking belief.
It's all fine until we die.

Then that item of eternal life could fail....
for lack of belief.

You should read that Bible, if there is an eternal afterlife - chances are very slim that you will go there. Have a go at passing through the eye of a needle - apparently that's easier.

 

[Thief]

You should read that Bible, if there is an eternal afterlife - chances are very slim that you will go there. Have a go at passing through the eye of a needle - apparently that's easier.

lucky me.....I am not a rich man.....

 

[Bunyip]

lucky me.....I am not a rich man.....

Compared to almost every person known to Jesus you are rich beyond imagination.

 

[Thief]

Compared to almost every person known to Jesus you are rich beyond imagination.

you should read scripture more often

it might help that non-belief....

and I hope to be known to Jesus

 

[Bunyip]

you should read scripture more often

it might help that non-belief....

and I hope to be known to Jesus

Reading scripture is why I became an atheist. In fact polling of atheists demonstrates that knowledge of the scriptures is one of the most common reasons people give for losing their faith.

 

[Thief]

Reading scripture is why I became an atheist. In fact polling of atheists demonstrates that knowledge of the scriptures is one of the most common reasons people give for losing their faith.

How strange....
perhaps the lack of faith is a result ...lacking the ability to sort through the details.

I don't base my belief on scripture anyway.
I lean to science....cause and effect....
you likely have seen my take on this

 

[Bunyip]

How strange....
perhaps the lack of faith is a result ...lacking the ability to sort through the details.

I don't base my belief on scripture anyway.
I lean to science....cause and effect....
you likely have seen my take on this

Yes, your belief is based on a simple misconception. Which is sad when you think about it.

 

[Thief]

Yes, your belief is based on a simple misconception. Which is sad when you think about it.

I'm just as happy as I could be....

The universe is the effect.
God is the Cause.

I think....it's good reasoning.

 

[Bunyip]

I'm just as happy as I could be....

The universe is the effect.
God is the Cause.

I think....it's good reasoning.

I know you do. Amazing. Unfortunately it is not reasoning at all. What caused God?

 

[TheTrendyCynic]

I know you do. Amazing. Unfortunately it is not reasoning at all. What caused God?

Ooh! Can I play? I've gotten very good at pretending to be a theist---really, at this point, we atheists can have these debates all by ourselves:

Nothing caused God. God didn't have to be caused. By definition, God exists outside of time, is eternal, and had no beginning. Check!

 

[Bunyip]

Ooh! Can I play? I've gotten very good at pretending to be a theist---really, at this point, we atheists can have these debates all by ourselves:

Nothing caused God. God didn't have to be caused. By definition, God exists outside of time, is eternal, and had no beginning. Check!

LOL Ok, I'll play. Well then if God needs no cause, why does the universe need one?

(FYI for the purposes of our exchange I am defining atheism as 'people who eat babies')

 

[ArtieE]

Sure. What I mean is that atheism infers no claim of knowledge - hence it is essentially agnostic.

You misunderstand the concepts. Atheism infers no claim of knowing or not knowing. A person who says he's an atheist says nothing about whether he's a gnostic or agnostic. There's no reason to infer that his atheism makes him an agnostic.

 

[Bunyip]

You misunderstand the concepts. Atheism infers no claim of knowing or not knowing. A person who says he's an atheist says nothing about whether he's a gnostic or agnostic. There's no reason to infer that his atheism makes him an agnostic.

I think you misread my comment.

 

[ArtieE]

Sure. What I mean is that atheism infers no claim of knowledge - hence it is essentially agnostic.

Let me rephrase. Atheism infers no claim of agnosticism. (Not knowing.) Atheism infers no claim of gnosticism (knowing) either. Atheism is just the absence of belief in gods. A person calling himself an atheist says nothing about whether he's a gnostic or agnostic, whether he thinks he knows or doesn't know if gods exist or not. His atheism doesn't automatically make him an agnostic he might as well be a gnostic.

 

[TheTrendyCynic]

LOL Ok, I'll play. Well then if God needs no cause, why does the universe need one?

(FYI for the purposes of our exchange I am defining atheism as 'people who eat babies')

As an atheist who eats babies, I accept your terms. The universe needs a cause because the universe is not God, and only God needs no cause. I mean, this is some by-definition shasterisks here.

 

[Bunyip]

Let me rephrase. Atheism infers no claim of agnosticism. (Not knowing.)

I think you mean; Atheism infers no claim of knowledge. Is that correct? If so, I agree.

Atheism infers no claim of gnosticism (knowing) either.

Yes, atheism is not a knowledge claim.

Atheism is just the absence of belief in gods.

Yep, agreed.

. A person calling himself an atheist says nothing about whether he's a gnostic or agnostic

Sure, agreed.

, whether he thinks he knows or doesn't know if gods exist or not. His atheism doesn't automatically make him an agnostic he might as well be a gnostic.

Correct, atheism/theism is about what a person BELIEVES, whilst agnosticism/gnosticism is about what a person KNOWS.

 

[TheTrendyCynic]

Let me rephrase. Atheism infers no claim of agnosticism. (Not knowing.) Atheism infers no claim of gnosticism (knowing) either. Atheism is just the absence of belief in gods. A person calling himself an atheist says nothing about whether he's a gnostic or agnostic, whether he thinks he knows or doesn't know if gods exist or not. His atheism doesn't automatically make him an agnostic he might as well be a gnostic.

Are you.. do you.. I can't... what?

Let me try to get this straight: atheism infers no claim of not knowing and no claim of knowing---it doesn't infer "A", "not A", "I don't know if A", or "I don't know if not A". You've literally defined the term "atheism" into meaningless nonexistence.