Atheism people have a belief "God does not exist "

[Trailblazer]

Okay, so are you saying that god is only partially "hidden"? List and define what parts are not hidden and provide evidence that demonstrates that those "parts" are parts of a god.

The Essence of God is hidden. Nobody has ever seen God, not even the Messengers of God.
We are only able to see a reflection of the Attributes of God in the Messengers of God.

Bear in mind that in order to assert anything is a part of a god, you must first demonstrate that said god exists in the first place.

The only proof that God exists are the Messengers of God who are a perfect mirror image of God's Attributes and who perfectly represent God's Will for mankind in every age.

 

[Milton Platt]

The Essence of God is hidden. Nobody has ever seen God, not even the Messengers of God.
We are only able to see a reflection of the Attributes of God in the Messengers of God.

The only proof that God exists are the Messengers of God who are a perfect mirror image of God's Attributes.

so you say....evidence of this god?????

 

[Trailblazer]

so you say....evidence of this god?????

The evidence of God are the Messengers of God.
The evidence of God for this age in history was Baha'u'llah.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The evidence of God are the Messengers of God.
The evidence of God for this age in history was Baha'u'llah.

No messengers, no god?

 

[Trailblazer]

No messengers, no god?

I did not say that. Milton asked me for evidence of God and I told him that the Messengers were the evidence.

Hypothetically, God could exist and not provide any evidence at all, or God could exist and not communicate to humanity (deist).

But as a Baha'i, I believe God sends Messengers and they are the evidence that God exists since a "Messenger of God" cannot exist unless there is a God to send Him.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But as a Baha'i, I believe God sends Messengers and they are the evidence that God exists since a "Messenger of God" cannot exist unless there is a God to send Him.

Yes. I asked the question, rather than paraphrasing what you said to someone else. Its not regarding evidence.

I know you wont know god without the messengers. If you have no messengers, would there still be god?

In other words, is the existence of god dependent on the messengers who are evidence to his existence?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes. I asked the question, rather than paraphrasing what you said to someone else. Its not regarding evidence.

I know you wont know god without the messengers. If you have no messengers, would there still be god?

In other words, is the existence of god dependent on the messengers who are evidence to his existence?

God would still exist without the existence of His Messengers.

Edited to add: I was not sure how to answer that but I just realized something. Since God has always existed and Messengers are created Beings, God had to exist before the Messengers, which means that God would exist even without His Messengers.

 

[Milton Platt]

The evidence of God are the Messengers of God.
The evidence of God for this age in history was Baha'u'llah.

This not evidence of the existence of a god. To say someone is a messenger if a god presupposes the god’s existence.

 

[Trailblazer]

This not evidence of the existence of a god. To say someone is a messenger if a god presupposes the god’s existence.

One only believes that God exists after they do the necessary research and come to realize that the Messenger speaks for God.

The Messenger is the only evidence of the existence of a God thus the Messenger is the only way to determine if God exists.

 

[Milton Platt]

One only believes that God exists after they do the necessary research and come to realize that the Messenger speaks for God.

The Messenger is the only evidence of the existence of a God thus the Messenger is the only way to determine if God exists.

So what you are saying here, really is that you cannot provide evidence of your god’s existence. Who is the messenger, and how do you materially demonstrate that they are conveying messages from a god? I contend that you cannot.

As to research, which of the thousands of versions of a god am I researching, and what experiments can be performed that will demonstrate the god exists? Define your god. If you have no workable definition of your god, then there is nothing to examine.

 

[Trailblazer]

So what you are saying here, really is that you cannot provide evidence of your god’s existence.

Baha’u’llah is the evidence that indicates that God exists. I do not have proof.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid:
Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement:

Who is the messenger, and how do you materially demonstrate that they are conveying messages from a god? I contend that you cannot.

No, I cannot prove He got messages from God.

As to research, which of the thousands of versions of a god am I researching, and what experiments can be performed that will demonstrate the god exists? Define your god. If you have no workable definition of your god, then there is nothing to examine.

God cannot be defined. God is and has ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived.

Experiments cannot be performed to prove that God exists because God is an immaterial Entity.

As I said, the only way to know anything about God is from what the Messenger of God reveals about God. Also, the Messenger is a perfect mirror image of God so He perfectly reflects the Attributes of God. A Messenger of God is the closest one can ever get to God. By knowing Him you can know God.

 

[Milton Platt]

Baha’u’llah is the evidence that indicates that God exists. I do not have proof.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid:
Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement:

No, I cannot prove He got messages from God.

God cannot be defined. God is and has ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived.

Experiments cannot be performed to prove that God exists because God is an immaterial Entity.

As I said, the only way to know anything about God is from what the Messenger of God reveals about God. Also, the Messenger is a perfect mirror image of God so He perfectly reflects the Attributes of God. A Messenger of God is the closest one can ever get to God. By knowing Him you can know God.

I was careful to avoid the word "proof". That actually applies to mathematical concepts.

First you say you cannot demonstrate that the messenger gets any messages from god at all, and then you say the only way to know anything about your god is what the messenger tells you.
I agree that experiments cannot be performed to demonstrate the existence of your god because you have defined him in a way that makes him unfalsifiable. But it also makes him unverifiable.
However, if the messenger is a "perfect" reflection of your god, then you should be able to define your god simply by defining the messenger, right?
Be all that as it may, basically you are running on faith and nothing else here. You cannot provide evidence that your god exists, and if he does, you cannot provide evidence that he is not in fact malevolent and has evil motives.....unless you are smarter than your god, maybe. You have no way to verify that the messenger isn't just feeding you B.S., either. How can you be certain of the ultimate veracity of either the messenger or the god?

 

[Trailblazer]

I was careful to avoid the word "proof". That actually applies to mathematical concepts.

I am glad to hear that...

First you say you cannot demonstrate that the messenger gets any messages from god at all, and then you say the only way to know anything about your god is what the messenger tells you.

I cannot prove that Baha’u’llah got messages from God, but there is evidence that indicates that He did. The evidence is that He was being truthful is His character and everything He did in His life, including His 40 year mission.

Also, there were people who witnessed Baha’u’llah receiving His revelation (messages) and they observed Him recording His scriptures. This is written in the history of the Baha’i Faith. Was that proof to them? It certainly must have been something to witness, more than anything I am able to have, but at least I have what they wrote about it.

I agree that experiments cannot be performed to demonstrate the existence of your god because you have defined him in a way that makes him unfalsifiable. But it also makes him unverifiable.

That is very true, unfalsifiable and unverifiable.
So we are kind of caught in the middle, aren’t we?

However, if the messenger is a "perfect" reflection of your god, then you should be able to define your god simply by defining the messenger, right?

You are batting a thousand tonight.

Yes, we can know the Attributes of God by knowing the Messenger, usually referred to as the Manifestation of God, since He perfectly reflects the Attributes of God. The caveat is that God’s Essence is above all His Attributes, so there are things we can never know.

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world...” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 54

Be all that as it may, basically you are running on faith and nothing else here. You cannot provide evidence that your god exists, and if he does, you cannot provide evidence that he is not in fact malevolent and has evil motives.....unless you are smarter than your god, maybe.

Baha’u’llah is the evidence that God exists. Yes, we have to have faith in Baha’u’llah, faith that He was indeed a Manifestation of God, but once we believe that, everything else follows from that belief.

Once we believe in Baha’u’llah, we believe everything He wrote is the absolute truth, because we believe that as a Manifestation of God He is infallible. We believe that whatever He revealed is this identical with the Will of God Himself. This is considered loftiest station to which a true believer can ever hope to attain.

You have no way to verify that the messenger isn't just feeding you B.S., either. How can you be certain of the ultimate veracity of either the messenger or the god?

Like I said, once we believe that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God, we know that what He wrote represents the Will of God. That is called belief in Divine unity. In a sense Baha’u’llah was God, only not God in the flesh as Christians believe. The Attributes and the Will for God can be perfectly manifested but the Essence of God can never be known by anyone.

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167