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Atheism

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The Supreme Court ruling on Gay Marriage was a significant leap forward for civil rights, which was generally opposed by religious groups. Many other western countries haven't even gone near that yet i.e. Australia.
Yet much of Western Europe did, long before we do, despite having state sponsored churches. Especially Nordic countries which are generally more secular in actuality but with state churches in practice, and have a much longer history of civil rights successes. Ditto with Canada and some other non-European countries.

What do you mean by your comment "Even though other countries don't have religious separation" - not sure what you mean by that.
As in there is no Seperation of Church and state clause in most European countries.

And why does the fact that atheism is the fastest growing demographic in the entire Western world discount anything about the US? People in the West have access to Youtube; they can buy books & attend lectures that are extremely antagonistic towards religion and faith; Hitchens' brutally delivered assertions were disseminated throughout the entire world.
Yes, but Dawkins and Hitchens were and are primarily read and successful in America, not in England or Western Europe. The so-called Brights and Atheist+ and other aggressive atheist groups are virtually non-existent in Western Europe. And Dawkins ended up speaking directly to America so much because America is the birthplace and the only stronghold on any relevant scale of Young-Earth creationism. But they haven't actually done anything to curtail the Christian religious movement here in the states. And, as I said, I think they made it worse. Hitchens in particular was, in my opinion, did pretty much nothing to change any minds, and was mostly just preaching to the choir of equally and overly aggressive atheists radicalizing the debates and gumming up the works.

Probably why people more like Bill Nye and Neil DeGrasse Tyson became more famous as voices of atheism (even though Neil doesn't identify as an atheist and basically says 'I don't care that we live in a religiously pluralistic society, stop trying to drag me into this silly fight.')
 

Timothy Bryce

Active Member
Yet much of Western Europe did, long before we do, despite having state sponsored churches. Especially Nordic countries which are generally more secular in actuality but with state churches in practice, and have a much longer history of civil rights successes. Ditto with Canada and some other non-European countries.

Which countries in Western Europe "went there" before the US?

As in there is no Seperation of Church and state clause in most European countries.

So what?

Yes, but Dawkins and Hitchens were and are primarily read and successful in America, not in England or Western Europe. The so-called Brights and Atheist+ and other aggressive atheist groups are virtually non-existent in Western Europe. And Dawkins ended up speaking directly to America so much because America is the birthplace and the only stronghold on any relevant scale of Young-Earth creationism. But they haven't actually done anything to curtail the Christian religious movement here in the states. And, as I said, I think they made it worse. Hitchens in particular was, in my opinion, did pretty much nothing to change any minds, and was mostly just preaching to the choir of equally and overly aggressive atheists radicalizing the debates and gumming up the works.

Those two are/were huge in Australia and Europe. I have no idea where you've pulled this opinion from.

The reason they focused their attention on the US is because the US has far more hard right religious folk; to such an extent that atheism is considering to be a horrifying idea in some vast segments of the country.

The USA is alone in the West in its approach to religion.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Totally agree.

Hitchens' death was tragically untimely. He promoted an incredible surge of what you've just described: you simply cannot coddle ideas that are obviously wrong and/or dangerous.

It's something that people have eerily begun to forget over the last 5 years since his death.

Now, allowing obviously mentally ill people to hack away at their genitals is misrepresented as some kind of "progressive" prerogative.

I really agree with the part I bolded, at least to some extent. That's exactly why I'm against aggressive, closed minded, exclusivist groups like the new atheism founded by Hitchens. It crazy close to dogma it comes sometimes, like not even being able to understand religion is not inherently dangerous, or that even pragmatically it can be beneficial. Hitchens and the like decided they knew the one way, and they had the right ideas, and they were the true skeptics, and everyone else is insane and dangerous. Fundamentalism starter pack right there.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I'm sure others here might feel similar, but online religious discussion has led to almost exclusively bad experiences with atheists. Not just here mind you, this is not some sort of meta post. These days in person life hardly allows for me to have this conversations, I'm either with a small group of known friends or on the clock, so as far as I can tell from experience, this is the majority of atheists. Please do correct me if I'm wrong. I'm sure theories on this range from "duh, they're all evil and immoral" to "being anonymous", but I think the answer lies in between.

Really?

My experience is entirely diferente from that. To the point that I have to wonder where your sample comes from.

I certainly would not know.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Which countries in Western Europe "went there" before the US?
It'd be a long list if I was talking about how many countries had gay unions and gay marriages before the united states did. Heck even Spain did. Similarly many countries had female voters, earlier or no bans on interracial marriage, transsexual rights (including legal sex changes). I say we're nothing special in civil rights globally because it's true. We tend to lag behind.

So it's a poignant reminder that legal separation is not necessary for a happy and healthy society with pluralistic beliefs including atheists. That plenty of countries have a healthier relationship with atheism and religion living together than the United States. And it didn't get there through divisive conflict between atheists and religious folk.

Those two are/were huge in Australia and Europe. I have no idea where you've pulled this opinion from.
Being in England and Norway and a couple locations, and virtually nobody had read their books. Most that I talked to didn't even recognize Hitchen's name. Even the atheists. Do you have some reason to believe they were more successful?

The reason they focused their attention on the US is because the US has far more hard right religious folk; to such an extent that atheism is considering to be a horrifying idea in some vast segments of the country.
And I bet you neither Dawkins or Hitchens has significantly changed any of that for the better. That the atheists who read them mostly do so well after they're already atheists and thus part of the choir. And those that don't are mostly taken aback by Hitchen's abrasive and judgemental viewpoint and Dawkin's unpolished philosophizing, and MORE likely to stick to their faith.
 

Timothy Bryce

Active Member
It'd be a long list if I was talking about how many countries had gay unions and gay marriages before the united states did. Heck even Spain did. Similarly many countries had female voters, earlier or no bans on interracial marriage, transsexual rights (including legal sex changes). I say we're nothing special in civil rights globally because it's true. We tend to lag behind.

I agree that the USA lags behind the rest of the West in civil rights (except maybe Australia), but to imply that this is somehow correlated with divisiveness between atheists & non-atheists is baseless.

So it's a poignant reminder that legal separation is not necessary for a happy and healthy society with pluralistic beliefs including atheists. That plenty of countries have a healthier relationship with atheism and religion living together than the United States. And it didn't get there through divisive conflict between atheists and religious folk.

Not pressed.

Being in England and Norway and a couple locations, and virtually nobody had read their books. Most that I talked to didn't even recognize Hitchen's name. Even the atheists. Do you have some reason to believe they were more successful?

Yes, because most people I'd met/know from Europe were extremely familiar with them and had bough & read their books.

I'm willing to bet that the people you know from these countries (who are apparently completely ignorant of Christopher Hitchens and Dawkins and wouldn't bother reading their books) aren't a grand, sweeping representation of Europe in its entirety with regard to whether they were aware of these two individuals' work.

And I bet you neither Dawkins or Hitchens has significantly changed any of that for the better. That the atheists who read them mostly do so well after they're already atheists and thus part of the choir. And those that don't are mostly taken aback by Hitchen's abrasive and judgemental viewpoint and Dawkin's unpolished philosophizing, and MORE likely to stick to their faith.

Any evidence to back that up? You seem to be speaking for a lot of people who aren't even here.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree that the USA lags behind the rest of the West in civil rights (except maybe Australia), but to imply that this is somehow correlated with divisiveness between atheists & non-atheists is baseless.
I am not implying that it's correlated with the divisiveness between atheists and non-atheists. Only that the divisiveness is not helping in any measurable way. And, in my observation, is hindering. For reasons like why this thread exists.

Not pressed.
I certainly am. Not needing an us-vs-them outlook on religion and having a true pluralistic experience while living with less oversight to force it is pretty impressive to me.

Yes, because most people I'd met/know from Europe were extremely familiar with them and had bough & read their books.

I'm willing to bet that the people you know from these countries (who are apparently completely ignorant of Christopher Hitchens and Dawkins and wouldn't bother reading their books) aren't a grand, sweeping representation of Europe in its entirety with regard to whether they were aware of these two individuals' work.
You're right, I can only speak to my experience on it. So do you have something like some book sales or something that shows the Atheist+ and Brights phenomenon exists comparably outside the US? Or the notoriety of these figures outside the US?

Any evidence to back that up? You seem to be speaking for a lot of people who aren't even here.
Can you show me how they have changed anything positively?
 

Timothy Bryce

Active Member
I am not implying that it's correlated with the divisiveness between atheists and non-atheists. Only that the divisiveness is not helping in any measurable way. And, in my observation, is hindering. For reasons like why this thread exists.

Would divisiveness not assist one in honing their own personal beliefs?

I certainly am. Not needing an us-vs-them outlook on religion and having a true pluralistic experience while living with less oversight to force it is pretty impressive to me.

"Not pressed" means I agree with you.

You're right, I can only speak to my experience on it. So do you have something like some book sales or something that shows the Atheist+ and Brights phenomenon exists comparably outside the US? Or the notoriety of these figures outside the US?

No, I don't. So I suppose we're at an impasse here.

Can you show me how they have changed anything positively?

I literally scoffed when I read this.

To provide any sole example would do an enormous disservice to all the incredibly positive, world-changing influences they have provided the world.

So I'll just post this obviously emotionally stoking video:


Yeah, they've totally wasted their lives.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah, they've totally wasted their lives.
I did not say they wasted their lives. I very much enjoyed Dawkin's books and respect his contributions to biology (I just don't think he's a very good philosopher). Hitchens, however, I'm sorry for the pain he suffered but his contribution I think was mostly to atheists for atheists, not for the larger world of science or philosophy. He was not an especially moving figure for me, even after reading his books. I look more towards Dennet for the philosophy aspect, more to paleontologists and paleoprimatologists for informative pieces on evolution, more towards Bill Nye and Neil DeGrasse Tyson for popular science and bringing science to the lay people. Hitchens ranted and raved a lot and said very little that struck me as especially enlightening. Mostly fearmongering and hateful towards 'the other side.' :shrug: That's just my opinion.
 

Timothy Bryce

Active Member
I did not say they wasted their lives. I very much enjoyed Dawkin's books and respect his contributions to biology (I just don't think he's a very good philosopher). Hitchens, however, I'm sorry for the pain he suffered but his contribution I think was mostly to atheists for atheists, not for the larger world of science or philosophy. He was not an especially moving figure for me, even after reading his books. I look more towards Dennet for the philosophy aspect, more to paleontologists and paleoprimatologists for informative pieces on evolution, more towards Bill Nye and Neil DeGrasse Tyson for popular science and bringing science to the lay people. Hitchens ranted and raved a lot and said very little that struck me as especially enlightening. Mostly fearmongering and hateful towards 'the other side.' :shrug: That's just my opinion.

Hitchens did a lot more than fight for anti-theistic ideals regardless of your opinion of his delivery of them.

Hitch-22 and Letters to the Young Contrarian are incredibly enlightening; his literary prowess is unparalleled by anyone I've seen before which is why, I think, his angle on a lot of religious debates were purely rhetoric in contrast to Dawkins' wimpy delivery of what are far more sound scientific ideas.

At the end of the day, Dawkins is a biologist while Hitchens spent his career as a journalistic contrarian. They both have their respective territories and their respective propensities for expressing themselves.
 
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1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Would divisiveness not assist one in honing their own personal beliefs?



"Not pressed" means I agree with you.



No, I don't. So I suppose we're at an impasse here.



I literally scoffed when I read this.

To provide any sole example would do an enormous disservice to all the incredibly positive, world-changing influences they have provided the world.

So I'll just post this obviously emotionally stoking video:


Yeah, they've totally wasted their lives.

"There is no absolute truth." Brilliant philosopher lol. I'm sure many contributed to museums without stoking religious hatred.
 

Timothy Bryce

Active Member
"There is no absolute truth." Brilliant philosopher lol. I'm sure many contributed to museums without stoking religious hatred.

The guy was just about to die, leaving behind a legacy of contrarianism and a constant resilience to be relentlessly inquisitive.

I thought funneling it down to the most basic statements of useful philosophy (which are almost always falling on deaf ears) was about the only thing left for him to do at the point in that video.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Idk what you mean by Soviet Union card. Were they not an atheistic state that did horrible things to those who disagreed, yes or no?
Indeed they did horrible things to people who didn't agree with their brand of communism and their mystical belief in dialectic materialism, which in short seems to be god without saying god. I fully resent your random accusation and hypocrisy also because the Soviet Union killed most of my grandfathers generation in my family and targeted my ethnicity for genocide in their territories and they took much of our lands from us during the WW2. They were doing it because they were trying to spread authoritarian communism.

Now who is shying away from accepting the bad side of their religion?
Perhaps you even don't read is why you don't understand or you choose to be ignorant. I'm not atheist. You should look into Hitler, he also believed in god like you and exterminated atheists.

The Night Stalker? Of course, why? What kind of ignorant SRA territory are you veering off into here?
The very same ignorant territory you are veering off into with your slander. I have zero problems with your religion. I'm trying to wake you up, but perhaps you're just trolling.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
The guy was just about to die, leaving behind a legacy of contrarianism and a constant resilience to be relentlessly inquisitive.

I thought funneling it down to the most basic statements of useful philosophy (which are almost always falling on deaf ears) was about the only thing left for him to do at the point in that video.

The statement was self-refuting. I hope you realize that.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
The guy was just about to die, leaving behind a legacy of contrarianism and a constant resilience to be relentlessly inquisitive.

I thought funneling it down to the most basic statements of useful philosophy (which are almost always falling on deaf ears) was about the only thing left for him to do at the point in that video.

First of all, being an anti skeptic who believed every single theist in existence is dangerous, deluded, or stupid is not even close to being relentlessly inquisitive. In fact the guy is known specifically because he DIDN'T question, he pandered to hateful, aggressive atheism and became famous with. That you then share him making a statement that pretty much any low level philosophy class uses as an early paradox example is quite funny. Much more scoff worthy.
 
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