Atheist, Christian, and Baha'i Cosmologies

[Trailblazer]

I see no difference between one's personal opinion and one's religious beliefs..

The difference is that one's religious beliefs are based upon what a religion teaches whereas one's personal opinion is just their opinion.

 

[ppp]

The difference is that one's religious beliefs are based upon what a religion teaches whereas one's personal opinion is just their opinion.

I did not say that I see no difference between the source of the belief /opinion. I said that I see no difference between personal opinions and religious beliefs in and of themselves themselves..

 

[Trailblazer]

I did not say that I see no difference between the source of the belief /opinion. I said that I see no difference between personal opinions and religious beliefs in and of themselves themselves..

I agree with you in the sense that religious beliefs are personal opinions about a religion.

 

[ppp]

I agree with you in the sense that religious beliefs are personal opinions about a religion.

I don't know what other sense one would mean it in.

All that believe means is that one is convinced of a proposition.
An opinion is just a proposition of which one is convinced.

 

[CG Didymus]

Juan Cole lost his way concerning the Baha'i Faith in some way, and now in a slanted way he criticizes Baha'i Administration. He's not someone I'm interested in listening to these days. What he believes is his own business, and I would rather leave him be, and let him bay in the dark. He did some good things once as a Baha'i scholar, and we can benefit from those.

To think everything is fine at the higher levels in the Baha'i administration isn't realistic. They are only fallible people. To just write off Juan Cole as others without listening to them and investigating whether the things they say are true could create problems. How transparent are the things being done at those higher levels?

Should people just assume all is well, and that the Baha'i leadership are all honest and not doing inappropriate things? I don't think Baha'is should, but then who can Baha'is trust to be the ones that watch over them? Themselves? Baha'is have appointed people to watch over the rest of the Baha'is. But when people at the top are doing things that aren't right, who's going to know? Who's going to complain and point it out? It's going to be people like Juan Cole. Should there be a way for him to get a fair and impartial hearing? And it doesn't sound like he can get that from the UHJ. And if that's true, then that's a big problem. Is the Baha'i leadership forcing "undesirables" or "trouble-makers" or people that challenge the authority out of the Baha'i Faith?

 

[CG Didymus]

I see no difference between one's personal opinion and one's religious beliefs..

Religious beliefs are meant to be believed, followed and totally and completely believed as being absolutely true. And the true believers have the "proof"... "God said it. I believe it. And that settles it." Which of course is not proof.

Baha'is fully believe that Baha'u'llah spoke the truth from God. For them, that makes it The Truth. That makes it "factual" to them. He is their proof that God is real and that all the things he said came from God. Trouble is... it's just a "belief" that he is a prophet sent from God. There is not proof. Only, what they call, "evidence" that he was what? Truthful? That he spent his life in prison and exile, so therefore, he must be telling the truth? And, they say, look at his writing... Who could have written all those profound things and so much of it?

But... some of us look at the claims, like with me, that he fulfilled all the prophecies of all the major religions and all that stuff about progressive revelation, that all the founders of the major religions were all sent be the same one God, and we doubt some of it. Some of the things he claimed and said, for some of us, just aren't true. What can we do but doubt everything about him and his religion? And the Baha'is haven't and cannot answer are questions.

If they want to believe... fine. Except... part of their religion tells them that they must go out and "teach" the faith. And that what it seems like they are trying to do. But, of course, they don't admit that they are here to try and teach their religion. They are here just to do... What exactly? If not to try and promote their religion, that it is the truth from God for today. Why don't they just admit it? Only because they don't want to look like those proselytizing Christians that go around preaching like they know the truth. Yet, Baha'is are exactly like them. They think they have the truth.

 

[Truthseeker]

To think everything is fine at the higher levels in the Baha'i administration isn't realistic. They are only fallible people. To just write off Juan Cole as others without listening to them and investigating whether the things they say are true could create problems. How transparent are the things being done at those higher levels?

Should people just assume all is well, and that the Baha'i leadership are all honest and not doing inappropriate things? I don't think Baha'is should, but then who can Baha'is trust to be the ones that watch over them? Themselves? Baha'is have appointed people to watch over the rest of the Baha'is. But when people at the top are doing things that aren't right, who's going to know? Who's going to complain and point it out? It's going to be people like Juan Cole. Should there be a way for him to get a fair and impartial hearing? And it doesn't sound like he can get that from the UHJ. And if that's true, then that's a big problem. Is the Baha'i leadership forcing "undesirables" or "trouble-makers" or people that challenge the authority out of the Baha'i Faith?

This thig you quoted s saying was nothing but unsubstantiated backbiting on people on the NSA. It isn't worth a thing. That is destructive and not constructive criticism. Cole is not a source that talks reasonably about the administration, and frankly what he says is propaganda. Besides that there's a way to improve the administration, and that to vote for someone else next time. We are not supposed to publicly criticize their decisions either, but strive to carry them out. The reason? The only way the Assembly will know if their decision is wrong if people try to carry out their decision, and it doesn't work out like they thought. If people work against that decision they will never know if they made the right decision or not, because did it not work out because it was the wrong decision, or because people were working against it? This way they learn what kinds of decisions lead to good outcomes.

 

[CG Didymus]

This thig you quoted s saying was nothing but unsubstantiated backbiting on people on the NSA. It isn't worth a thing. That is destructive and not constructive criticism. Cole is not a source that talks reasonably about the administration, and frankly what he says is propaganda. Besides that there's a way to improve the administration, and that to vote for someone else next time. We are not supposed to publicly criticize their decisions either, but strive to carry them out. The reason? The only way the Assembly will know if their decision is wrong if people try to carry out their decision, and it doesn't work out like they thought. If people work against that decision they will never know if they made the right decision or not, because did it not work out because it was the wrong decision, or because people were working against it? This way they learn what kinds of decisions lead to good outcomes.

Okay, you know that, but how would I know that? Everything, when I investigate things about the Baha'i Faith and how things are working, are either by Baha'is or ex-Baha'is. At the local level I know there was problems, because I was there and had Baha'i friends that talked about some of the things that were going on.

Maybe, they shouldn't have? That they should not have discussed the inner workings of the Baha'i Faith to a non-Baha'i? Trouble is... it sounded like leadership was very conservative and even authoritarian, these friends of mine were very liberal and were out teaching the Faith during the "mass-teaching" times of the early 70's.

One thing that happened was that in the Pacific Northwest, after a teaching project on a Indian Reservation, they would invite the new Baha'is and others to what they called a "nine-day" institute. During those nine days they go through the Hidden Words and Four Valleys and Seven Valleys. People were opening up and having mystical experiences. Some even claimed to have had visions of Abdul Baha'.

One friend said that one evening they left the group, the groups were usually less than ten people, and went out into woods. This was in Idaho, so there were wild animals roaming around at night. His initial thought was that he was going to go out there and "commune" with God and maybe get some kind of insight or inspiration out there. Once he realized how dark and potentially dangerous it was, the insight he got was... he was with a group of people, sharing and loving and talking about the Faith, and he left it to go get something better... as if he was more spiritual than them and God would communicate something to him.

When he went back, the lady running the institute looked at him and whispered, "Did you see Abdul Baha'?" He said he smile and said, "No, but I did learn a spiritual lesson." He said that just let the love and the warmth of the group surround him.

Anyway, the nine-day institutes were shut down. One comment came from Bill Sears wife. I was told that she said that the institute was creating "spiritual haves and have nots." And yes, I can see that. The participants did experience something spiritual that changed them. Sorry, but I kind of side with those liberal Baha'is. I don't trust those in power.

 

[Truthseeker]

Okay, you know that, but how would I know that? Everything, when I investigate things about the Baha'i Faith and how things are working, are either by Baha'is or ex-Baha'is. At the local level I know there was problems, because I was there and had Baha'i friends that talked about some of the things that were going on.

Maybe, they shouldn't have? That they should not have discussed the inner workings of the Baha'i Faith to a non-Baha'i? Trouble is... it sounded like leadership was very conservative and even authoritarian, these friends of mine were very liberal and were out teaching the Faith during the "mass-teaching" times of the early 70's.

One thing that happened was that in the Pacific Northwest, after a teaching project on a Indian Reservation, they would invite the new Baha'is and others to what they called a "nine-day" institute. During those nine days they go through the Hidden Words and Four Valleys and Seven Valleys. People were opening up and having mystical experiences. Some even claimed to have had visions of Abdul Baha'.

One friend said that one evening they left the group, the groups were usually less than ten people, and went out into woods. This was in Idaho, so there were wild animals roaming around at night. His initial thought was that he was going to go out there and "commune" with God and maybe get some kind of insight or inspiration out there. Once he realized how dark and potentially dangerous it was, the insight he got was... he was with a group of people, sharing and loving and talking about the Faith, and he left it to go get something better... as if he was more spiritual than them and God would communicate something to him.

When he went back, the lady running the institute looked at him and whispered, "Did you see Abdul Baha'?" He said he smile and said, "No, but I did learn a spiritual lesson." He said that just let the love and the warmth of the group surround him.

Anyway, the nine-day institutes were shut down. One comment came from Bill Sears wife. I was told that she said that the institute was creating "spiritual haves and have nots." And yes, I can see that. The participants did experience something spiritual that changed them. Sorry, but I kind of side with those liberal Baha'is. I don't trust those in power.

I can't come to a conclusion from what you said to me. These are your experiences, and I am ignorant about what went on in your neck of the woods in the 1970s. I remember my wife going to a nine day institute sometime in the eighties, and it was nothing like that. You think they were shut down in the seventies? Is that when you heard that? My wife was going to one in the eighties. I have no idea why after a while I didn't hear of nine day institutes.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I can't come to a conclusion from what you said to me. These are your experiences, and I am ignorant about what went on in your neck of the woods in the 1970s. I remember my wife going to a nine day institute sometime in the eighties, and it was nothing like that. You think they were shut down in the seventies? Is that when you heard that? My wife was going to one in the eighties. I have no idea why after a while I didn't hear of nine day institutes.

My guess is that the Rhui program slowly replaced these types of events. We had these going up into the early 2000's.

The issue was we had no way of deepening peoples knowledge of what the Baha'i Faith was, many brought their own concepts and had no idea that Baha'u'llah was challenging us to become a new race of men, that we need to drop many vain imaginings and look at life through the requirements of this age.

Self will always be our shortcomings. The key is that it does take structure to build the institutional foundations, we do not need individuals doing their own thing any more, the time is for collective community efforts. (There will be many places where that is needed still, what I am saying is that in place that has a group, an individual need to work with that group and not dominate with their own perspectives).

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I can't come to a conclusion from what you said to me. These are your experiences, and I am ignorant about what went on in your neck of the woods in the 1970s. I remember my wife going to a nine day institute sometime in the eighties, and it was nothing like that. You think they were shut down in the seventies? Is that when you heard that? My wife was going to one in the eighties. I have no idea why after a while I didn't hear of nine day institutes.

These were completely tied into the mass teaching projects in the western states. One was held right after a mass teaching project at a Reservation. All of these deepening institutes only used the Hidden Words and Four Valleys and Seven Valleys and were held at a place in Idaho.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Christian cosmology he presents is also a simplification of the Christian perspective. There were prophets before Jesus, who was His only begotten Son. There was the virgin birth, was baptized, saw the Holy Spirit manifested in a dove, and preached the gospel, performed many miracles and eventually was put to death. The only way to the Father is through Him, and He died for our sins on the cross, and was resurrected three days later, and went back up to be with His Father. Some day He will return and take true believers with Him and/or build the kingdom of God on Earth. The Christian view is that salvation of one's immortal soul comes from believing in Christ, being baptized, and that good Christian eventually go to heaven, and most others go to hell. There's more to it than that. Keep in mind this is only one Baha'is perspective also, as he says in the beginning.

Before your thread goes away, I think you and other Baha'is should discuss more how the Baha'i Faith ties in Christianity into their beliefs or "cosmology".

The New Testament has so little for any other religion to use to support that their religion is equally as true as Christianity. Christianity only supports Judaism as being from God. But uses it in a negative way... that the Law was used to show that people can't live up to the Law and, therefore, can't ever be good enough to save themselves.

Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.​

Romans 5:20 The law was added (given) so that the trespass might INCREASE. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 3:23-25 'Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. ​

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So, the law exposes our sin. We see ourselves as we truly are. And having seen the problem, we will then look for the solution - which is that through the death of the Lord Jesus, we may be declared righteous in God's sight through faith in what Jesus has done on our behalf.​

And then after Christianity comes Islam and the Baha'i Faith with more laws.