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Atheist, Christian, and Baha'i Cosmologies
- Thread starter Truthseeker
- Start date
ppp
Well-Known Member
And yet.
I think all this stuff you toss out about opinions and facts are false flags. Just something to complain about as a diversion from whatever you don't want to talk about.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
I'll comment on this only. I do see that you didn't say "one" Baha'i said that they should teach prayer in schools. My mistake.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
All this stuff I toss out about opinions and facts are valid points.
To sum up what I was explaining:
I have religious beliefs
@F1fan has personal opinions
Neither one of us have facts
If he wants me to preface everything I say about God or my religious beliefs with "I believe" then he should preface everything he says with "In my opinion."
There is nothing I don't want to talk about.
Please note that I was not the one who started complaining. I was only responding to the complaint.
@F1fan said: #211
OK, God exists as a fact given your declarative statement here, so provide facts that show you know this is true.
Or edit your post that it is ONLY your belief that God is perfectly competent.
@F1fan said: #214
No, declarative statements are assertions of fact and truth. You have a bad habit of writing your opinions as if factual. Your statement asserted that God has a certain property and quality, and that is information. Yet we all know that you have no such information, nor have demonstrated any God exists.
What Is a Declarative Sentence? A declarative sentence is generally a simple statement that is used to provide information about something or state a fact. It ends with a full stop or a period. It is the most common type of sentence in the English language.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So... only people that meet those qualifications are eligible to be elected? Or... all those that appear to have those qualifications can be elected?
As with the example of the U.S., some people think their guy is extremely qualified, but the candidate from the other guys is not. Even with the Baha'is, there's going to be very conservative people and very liberal people. Which one is best qualified? That depends on the delegates. In some places the delegates could be very liberal Baha'is and in others, very conservative Baha'is. Anyway here's something from Juan Cole...
- Actually, early twentieth century Baha'is under `Abdu'l-Baha had perfectly democratic elections, and were instructed to do it that way by `Abdu'l-Baha. During WW I when there was conflict over whether to support the war effort or adopt a pacifist stance, hawks like Mason Remey organized a campaign for the NSA in 1917 in which they captured it and reversed the previous pacifist policy! Older Baha'is spoke of the times when Republican and Democratic Baha'is wouldn't speak with one another.
The problem with the current situation is not merely that the voting records of the NSA members are completely unknown. It is that the activities and policies of the NSA as a whole are almost completely unknown! What exactly do these people do? What policies have they made? What effect have the policies had? Have they been good for the growth of the community, numerically and spiritually? Without knowing the answer to this question, how can the delegates even begin to vote intelligently? Though, as we have seen, the very rules of the elections leave them with little potential impact.
We know that there were about 48,000 adult Baha'is with good addresses in the US in 1978. There are now about 60,000. In the meantime 12,000 Iranians immigrated. This means that there has been no growth in over twenty years. *None*. Of course, hundreds if not a few thousands of people have come in during the past two decades, but enormous numbers of them have gone right back out. Would any CEO who had not increased his earnings a single penny over twenty years be reappointed by the board?
The exclusivistic policies of Mr. Henderson, who is frankly mean-spirited, have contributed enormously to this Great Stagnation. He was the one who cracked down on Dialogue magazine in such a nasty way. He bullied Baha'i travel agents in 1991, for the Lord knows what reward from the corrupt Corporate Travel Consultants. He agitated behind the scenes for a crackdown on [email protected]. He has chased travel teachers out of the country, seeing them as an electoral threat should they become successful. I have no idea about the propriety of Jim Nelson's book-keeping practices, but surely for Henderson to publicly smear him after Jim served on the NSA 1971-1999, in circumstances where Nelson cannot even publicly defend himself, is the height of sleaze. Henderson has arranged for himself to live rent free free in a 9-bedroom mansion (having the Bourgeois studio knocked down to build it, against UHJ instructions) with free Baha'i maids and gardeners, and his main business seems to be bullying Baha'is into silence behind the scenes. And I fully acknowledge that he is probably acting rationally given the way the Baha'i system is structured.
So, I think all these things are related: the fact that the Baha'i faith in the US has been going nowhere fast for decades; the fact that the electoral system seems to elect the ambitious and greedy (and paranoid) to the top offices; the fact that even initially upright people are made perpetual incumbents, exposing them to the temptations of absolute power held for decades and corrupting them; the fact that the electoral system provides an incentive for the incumbents to slap down and chase out potential competitors; the fact that it would not be in the incumbents' interest for the faith to expand, become more open, attract a lot of new voters who might rock the boat.
Term limits would go a long way toward solving all these problems. In fact, why not have staggered elections for 4-year terms? You could elect 5 members in 2000 and 4 in 2002. People who don't serve as long as Nelson did might not become tempted to act high-handedly. They wouldn't face reelection and so would have no reason to fear being unseated by active young folks.
Counselor Fred Schechter, one of the people who falsely accused me, once told a friend of mine that anyone who becomes active in the faith will be attacked (by the faith's officials, it is implied). We hadn't at the time realized that Schechter intended to *act* on this observation!
This is a dysfunctional system, folks. There are ways in which it destroyed Dan Jordan (forcing him to live a lie and to resort to secret trysts), Allen Ward, and now Jim Nelson--not to mention the spiritual harm it has wreaked on the Baby Boom intellectuals who were enticed in with promises of tolerance and justice (!!!).
When Glenford Mitchell had become a huge pain in the *** as NSA secretary and was finally elected off it to the UHJ, everyone breathed a big sigh of relief. And when Henderson came in, the word was that he was a good guy, and we were all relieved. And then in a few short years he demonstrated that he was an even bigger pain in the *** than Mitchell had been. Even dumping Henderson wouldn't solve the problem. The *system* creates the Hendersons and the Nelsons. If anyone cared about the fortunes of the faith as opposed to the size of their marble offices, they would fix the system.
cheers Juan
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
What's the difference between someone saying, "I believe that God is real"? and "I know God is real" To me, there's not that much difference. We kind of assume that the person saying they "believe" in God has their reasons. And probably, in their mind, they even "know" God is real. But what do they "know" and what do they "believe"?
With Baha'is, we "know" pretty much what they believe and why they believe it... and it ain't facts.
Is this God of theirs in control or not? Like what? He says, "Gee, I wonder what will happen if I just let those humans do whatever they want?"
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
FWIW, I think you explain yourself quite well, Trailblazer.
ppp
Well-Known Member
As I said. A false flag.. Opinions are beliefs.
"I believe" is your bugaboo. Propositional statements spoken by everyone are implicitly a statement of belief. All that "I believe..." means is that I am convinced that X is the case.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
ppp
Well-Known Member
I believe that the Earth goes around the Sun. It is my opinion that the Earth goes around the Sun. I am convinced that the Earth goes around the Sun.
I don't see the difference.
I don't. I should not have used that word and I retract it. What I think is that you don't have a firm grasp of the concepts behind opinion and belief , or what the differences and similarities are. You seem to regard the word "belief" as something other than "a position (or collection of positions) that one is convinced of".
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is not an opinion that the earth goes around the sun, it is a fact, since proof exists.
You do not have to be convinced (as in the case of as religious belief), since It is a fact that the Earth goes around the Sun
Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact
Fact: a thing that is known or proved to be true.
Yes, someone is convinced of their belief, but one can also be convinced of their opinion.
Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case, with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty.
Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. opinion meaning - Google Search
The difference is that an opinion 'can be' based upon fact or knowledge whereas a belief is not based upon facts.
What is a belief or opinion?
A opinion is a judgement based on facts while a belief is a conviction based on personal values. An opinion is a judgment based on facts, an honest attempt to draw a reasonable conclusion from factual evidence.Jun 29, 2016
ppp
Well-Known Member
No. It's an opinion based on the facts presented. We could all be in the Matrix where the Earth and Sun are completely imaginary. Or we could be witnessing reality exactly as it iis. Or some where on the spectrum of possibilities that lie in between.
Facts are the reality that is presented to us. I have no other options but to accepy that the Earth and Sun exists.
Proof does not exist. Only evidence.
Try constructing a line of reasoning in your own words. Citing a dictionary does you no good unless you can construct a cogent line of reasoning. IOW, do you understand your own opinion well enough to build a sound argument? I have yet to see even an attempt at one.
That is false. I believe that I buried a time capsule under the left side of my back porch for the bicentennial. That is a proper usage of the word "believe". It has nothing to do with my values.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yeah, yeah... "I believe"? Yes, how many times are we going to hear that they believe. The question is why do they believe it?
The claim is that they investigated it and became convinced it is The Truth. That's the type of belief where they know it's true and go out and tell others that it is true. And some Baha'is have given their lives for this religion. The belief is that the promised one has come. Well, okay... how do they know?
What's the proof? "Well, there is no proof." Ah, but they say there is evidence. Then it ends up the "evidence" is basically that their prophet was a nice guy, and he said God is real and that God sent him, and they believe what he says is true. And why are they surprised that some of us expect more?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Not all opinions are fact-based but it is a fact-based opinion that the Earth goes around the Sun.
That's true.
Fact: something that actually exists; reality; truth:
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fact
Okay. That is also what I get when I google it.
I have not presented my personal opinions, I have presented my religious beliefs. There can be no sound argument for religious beliefs such as Messengers are sent by God since the existence of God cannot be proven. That is why I do not even attempt to make an argument. All I do is share my beliefs and I am not trying to convince anyone that they are true.
A person's conviction of the truth of something might be related to one's values or it might not be.
You believe (accept as true/feel sure) that you buried a time capsule under the left side of your back porch for the bicentennial.
Believe
1. accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of.
"the superintendent believed Lancaster's story"
2. hold (something) as an opinion; think or suppose.
"I believe we've already met"
believe means - Google Search
So anyway on the subject of what Baha'i think of atheists we should also look at what Baha'u'llah thought of atheists.
Although I don't know of any specific references to atheists by Baha'u'llah (he polemicises what he terms "the ungodly" however he appears to have meant people deprived of virtue by this unfortunate choice of words) nonetheless atheists are a subset of non-Bahai, so the question remains are we to blindly believe the claims by Baha'u'llah of how Baha'u'llah regards non-Baha'i, or should we as critical thinkers evaluate his actions for divergence from his words?
If we are to go with actions here is an interesting teaching of Baha'u'llah which seems to highlight what he truly thought of non-Baha'i in my view;
It is Baha'i inheritance law.
Baha'u'llah states, "Any heir, from whichever category of inheritors, who is outside the Faith of God is accounted as non-existent and doth not inherit."
Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 105-141
So according to my understanding any non-Baha'i child would according to Baha'u'llah's recommendation be cut of from the family inheritance which Shoghi Effendi has clarified applies only in cases of intestacy (where a person dies without providing a will) as if that makes such bigotry ok.
Here is Shoghi Effendi on the matter;
'…Although in the “Questions & Answers” Baha’u’llah has specifically stated that non-Baha’is have no right to inherit from their Baha’i parents or relatives, yet this restriction applies only to such cases when a Baha’i dies without leaving a will and when, therefore, his property will have to be divided in accordance with the rules set forth in the Aqdas.'
Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Dawn of a New Day, Page 77
Although I don't know of any specific references to atheists by Baha'u'llah (he polemicises what he terms "the ungodly" however he appears to have meant people deprived of virtue by this unfortunate choice of words) nonetheless atheists are a subset of non-Bahai, so the question remains are we to blindly believe the claims by Baha'u'llah of how Baha'u'llah regards non-Baha'i, or should we as critical thinkers evaluate his actions for divergence from his words?
If we are to go with actions here is an interesting teaching of Baha'u'llah which seems to highlight what he truly thought of non-Baha'i in my view;
It is Baha'i inheritance law.
Baha'u'llah states, "Any heir, from whichever category of inheritors, who is outside the Faith of God is accounted as non-existent and doth not inherit."
Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 105-141
So according to my understanding any non-Baha'i child would according to Baha'u'llah's recommendation be cut of from the family inheritance which Shoghi Effendi has clarified applies only in cases of intestacy (where a person dies without providing a will) as if that makes such bigotry ok.
Here is Shoghi Effendi on the matter;
'…Although in the “Questions & Answers” Baha’u’llah has specifically stated that non-Baha’is have no right to inherit from their Baha’i parents or relatives, yet this restriction applies only to such cases when a Baha’i dies without leaving a will and when, therefore, his property will have to be divided in accordance with the rules set forth in the Aqdas.'
Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Dawn of a New Day, Page 77
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Juan Cole lost his way concerning the Baha'i Faith in some way, and now in a slanted way he criticizes Baha'i Administration. He's not someone I'm interested in listening to these days. What he believes is his own business, and I would rather leave him be, and let him bay in the dark. He did some good things once as a Baha'i scholar, and we can benefit from those.
ppp
Well-Known Member
If you are not presenting propositions of which you are personally convinced then I don't care what you have to say. I am interested in authenticity. Not mouthpieces.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
ppp
Well-Known Member
I see no difference between one's personal opinion and one's religious beliefs..