Atheist, Christian, and Baha'i Cosmologies

[Trailblazer]

I don't either. But Baha’u’llah and your grand council seem to think so.

I don't know where you got that idea. I think you need to ask @Truthseeker or @TransmutingSoul about the World government since that is not my bailiwick.

 

[ppp]

I don't know where you got that idea. I think you need to ask @Truthseeker or @TransmutingSoul about the World government since that is not my bailiwick.

Stuff like this from the mouths and fingers of a multitude of Baha'i.
"Baha’u’llah envisioned a time in the future when the peoples of the world will live together in peace and unity as members of one faith. Universal justice will be established based on adherence to the law of God. A new civilization based on spiritual values will come into being. He referred to this as the Most Great Peace.

"The Baha’i writings explain that there will be three stages leading to the new divine civilization. First will be a period of great turmoil and suffering, which we are now witnessing. Then will come the Lesser Peace, which is the political unity of nations. After that will come the Most Great Peace."

Of the three of you, you are the least adept at dissimulation and spin.

 

[Truthseeker]

The other "evidence" you speak of falls into the category of unreliable due to it either being mistaken evidence or fabricated evidence in my opinion.

According to what Abdul-Baha said it is to do all three. Have you read this?;

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 7-11

reference.bahai.org

This whole chapter is on the need for an educator. Here are the relevant points;

"...education is of three kinds: material, human and spiritual."
"Human education signifies civilization and progress—that is to say, government, administration, charitable works, trades, arts and handicrafts, sciences, great inventions and discoveries and elaborate institutions..."
"Now we need an educator who will be at the same time a material, human and spiritual educator, and whose authority will be effective in all conditions."
"Therefore, the Universal Educator must be at the same time a physical, human and spiritual educator; and He must possess a supernatural power"
"Now we must consider justly: did these Divine Manifestations Who have appeared possess all these qualifications or not? 3 If They had not these qualifications and these perfections, They were not real Educators"
"It has now been proved by rational arguments that the world of existence is in the utmost need of an educator, and that its education must be achieved by divine power. There is no doubt that this holy power is revelation"

So you see according to Abdul-Baha they did come to educate us in the sciences through the power of revelation.

Contradictions don't balance each other out. If I say the sun gives light and the sun does not give light, this does not mean that the sun gives half light for example. When Abdul-Baha was saying "Any religion that contradicts science or that is opposed to it, is only ignorance" he was talking to people of other religions, when he spoke to Baha'is he always corrected them on matters of science by insisting on what he saw as revealed truth. Therefore it is clear that he wanted other religions to be subject to science to eradicate their superstitions, but *not* the Baha'i faith in my view.

Physician heal thyself. I believe that the whole picture is that Shoghi Effendi interprets the words of Abdul-Baha. And he said, "You see our whole approach to each matter is based on the belief that God sends us divinely inspired Educators; what they tell us is fundamentally true, what science tells us today is true; tomorrow may be entirely changed to better explain a new set of facts." To try and "balance" that by focusing on a tiny portion of a quote from Abdul-Baha's numerous contradictory quotes and actions is not looking at the "whole" picture or as Shoghi Effendi says the "whole approach"

I understand that it was not dishonest. The way I see it you got confused, threw out an ad-hominem, and can't support the substance of your ad-hominem so are now doubling down on your ad-hominem and hand waving the need to support your claim which is a serious allegation.

You can believe what you want to about this. I have my own independent opinion, and you won't change mine with a few words, not because I can't listen or examine critically, but because we are different people and I can't see from your point of view, only from mine.

I am not doubling down, or waving my hands. I am trying to be helpful to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Stuff like this from the mouths and fingers of a multitude of Baha'i.
"Baha’u’llah envisioned a time in the future when the peoples of the world will live together in peace and unity as members of one faith. Universal justice will be established based on adherence to the law of God. A new civilization based on spiritual values will come into being. He referred to this as the Most Great Peace.

"The Baha’i writings explain that there will be three stages leading to the new divine civilization. First will be a period of great turmoil and suffering, which we are now witnessing. Then will come the Lesser Peace, which is the political unity of nations. After that will come the Most Great Peace."

Of the three of you, you are the least adept at dissimulation and spin.

In post #177, you said:
It does seem that is your ultimate goal - World Government to which your Baha'i supreme council functions in an official advisory capacity.

What you are describing above is accurate but it is not a World Government to which a Baha'i supreme council functions in an official advisory capacity.

 

[ppp]

In post #177, you said:
It does seem that is your ultimate goal - World Government to which your Baha'i supreme council functions in an official advisory capacity.

What you are describing above is accurate but it is not a World Government to which a Baha'i supreme council functions in an official advisory capacity.

The Universal House of Justice, being the supreme governing body of the Baha'i Fait, would presumably continue its function as the global administrative and spiritual authority for Baha'is worldwide, offering guidance and leadership.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Universal House of Justice, being the supreme governing body of the Baha'i Faith, would presumably continue its function as the global administrative and spiritual authority for Baha'is worldwide, offering guidance and leadership.

The Universal House of Justice will continue its function as the global administrative and spiritual authority for Baha'is worldwide, offering guidance and leadership, but that does not mean they will have authority over any secular governments.

 

[ppp]

The Universal House of Justice will continue its function as the global administrative and spiritual authority for Baha'is worldwide, offering guidance and leadership, but that does not mean they will have authority over any secular governments.

"Universal justice will be established based on adherence to the law of God"

Secular?

 

[Truthseeker]

Stuff like this from the mouths and fingers of a multitude of Baha'i.
"Baha’u’llah envisioned a time in the future when the peoples of the world will live together in peace and unity as members of one faith. Universal justice will be established based on adherence to the law of God. A new civilization based on spiritual values will come into being. He referred to this as the Most Great Peace.

"The Baha’i writings explain that there will be three stages leading to the new divine civilization. First will be a period of great turmoil and suffering, which we are now witnessing. Then will come the Lesser Peace, which is the political unity of nations. After that will come the Most Great Peace."

Of the three of you, you are the least adept at dissimulation and spin.

Here my answer. First all of the world will not become Baha'is:

Q. Will all people become Bahá’ís in the future?


A. There is no reference in the writings stating that every single person will become Bahá’í, but at least half of them will. Rúḥíyyih Khánum used to say that Shoghi Effendi was asked this question quite often by pilgrims. He would answer by saying that, in this Dispensation, the totality of the peoples of the world will not become Bahá’ís, but the majority will.
‘Alí Nakhjavani, "Shoghi Effendi - The Range and Power of His Pen"

So I asked these questions of the Universal House of Justice, and this is the answer:

Is there any definitive guidance on what we will do when the Baha’is become a majority in a country? Will the national assembly take over? Or will we form a new government by other means. I am worried about shutting people out of the administration of a government. I am afraid we will cause bad feelings. Could we have a different law for Baha’is and other people so as to not impose Baha’i law on others?

Dear Bahá’í Friend,

The Universal House of Justice has received your email message of 12 June 2018, seeking guidance about the nature of the administration of a country when the majority of its population will have accepted the Faith and how in that circumstance minorities would be treated. We have been asked to convey the following and regret the delay in our response. It is not possible to describe with particularity how the governance of a country might be affected when the majority of its people accept the Faith. However, any change will be by democratic means and not by force. The writings of our Faith make it clear that under a Bahá’í system the rights of minorities must always be respected and upheld. Shoghi Effendi has enunciated this principle:

Unlike the nations and peoples of the earth, be they of the East or of the West, democratic or authoritarian, communist or capitalist, whether belonging to the Old World or the New, who either ignore, trample upon, or extirpate, the racial, religious, or political minorities within the sphere of their jurisdiction, every organized community enlisted under the banner of Bahá’u’lláh should feel it to be its first and inescapable obligation to nurture, encourage, and safeguard every minority belonging to any faith, race, class, or nation within it. (The Advent of Divine Justice (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 2006, 2015 printing), p. 53)
With loving Bahá’í greetings, Department of the Secretariat

What I understand from this is that in the Most Great Peace, each nation will arrange things differently depending on the nation involved, because each nation is unique in it's culture and circumstances, but the rights of the minorities of each nation will be respected, including religious minorities, which would include any who don't belong to any religion.

 

[ppp]

Here my answer. First all of the world will not become Baha'is:

Q. Will all people become Bahá’ís in the future?


A. There is no reference in the writings stating that every single person will become Bahá’í, but at least half of them will. Rúḥíyyih Khánum used to say that Shoghi Effendi was asked this question quite often by pilgrims. He would answer by saying that, in this Dispensation, the totality of the peoples of the world will not become Bahá’ís, but the majority will.
‘Alí Nakhjavani, "Shoghi Effendi - The Range and Power of His Pen"

So I asked these questions of the Universal House of Justice, and this is the answer:

Is there any definitive guidance on what we will do when the Baha’is become a majority in a country? Will the national assembly take over? Or will we form a new government by other means. I am worried about shutting people out of the administration of a government. I am afraid we will cause bad feelings. Could we have a different law for Baha’is and other people so as to not impose Baha’i law on others?

Dear Bahá’í Friend,

The Universal House of Justice has received your email message of 12 June 2018, seeking guidance about the nature of the administration of a country when the majority of its population will have accepted the Faith and how in that circumstance minorities would be treated. We have been asked to convey the following and regret the delay in our response. It is not possible to describe with particularity how the governance of a country might be affected when the majority of its people accept the Faith. However, any change will be by democratic means and not by force. The writings of our Faith make it clear that under a Bahá’í system the rights of minorities must always be respected and upheld. Shoghi Effendi has enunciated this principle:

Unlike the nations and peoples of the earth, be they of the East or of the West, democratic or authoritarian, communist or capitalist, whether belonging to the Old World or the New, who either ignore, trample upon, or extirpate, the racial, religious, or political minorities within the sphere of their jurisdiction, every organized community enlisted under the banner of Bahá’u’lláh should feel it to be its first and inescapable obligation to nurture, encourage, and safeguard every minority belonging to any faith, race, class, or nation within it. (The Advent of Divine Justice (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 2006, 2015 printing), p. 53)
With loving Bahá’í greetings, Department of the Secretariat

What I understand from this is that in the Most Great Peace, each nation will arrange things differently depending on the nation involved, because each nation is unique in it's culture and circumstances, but the rights of the minorities of each nation will be respected, including religious minorities, which would include any who don't belong to any religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Universal justice will be established based on adherence to the law of God"

Secular?

I did not mean that the UHJ is secular, I meant that there will be governments that are secular.

 

[ppp]

I have read that. I don't think that addfresses the point that I raised.

The Great Peace is a Baha'i aspiration where a society is primarily Baha'i, and the world government is founded on the concepts of Justice that the Baha'i attribute to their concepts of a god and messengers. Concepts that are de facto edicts of the Baha'i Universal House of Justice.

Are any of those sentences factually incorrect?

I grant that the government could be democratic in form, but that same government would be structured under the standards set down by the Baha'i Universal House of Justice. It's authority would come from that House, and thus be beholden to that house.

But I may be missing some nuance. Can you explain why you think otherwise?

 

[ppp]

I did not mean that the UHJ is secular, I meant that there will be governments that are secular.

I understood that is what you are meant. I do not see how a government can be secular when it is founded on the concepts of divine justice of a given religion. In this case, that religion is Baha'i. This seems like the same setup as the Catholic Church and Holy Roman Empire

 

[CG Didymus]

Why do you think it matters if Baha'i laws only apply to Baha'i?

So, let's see now, God is perfect, and he knows what is best for humans. So, he gave them laws. But the laws only apply to people who follow a particular religion that says its laws came from God. But, it's a little more than that. He gave laws to one manifestation from one people and culture and different laws to another manifestation from another culture.

Baha'is say that the latest manifestation's laws actually replace the laws from the previous manifestations. So, a Christian, Jew or Muslim should stop following the laws brought by Jesus, Moses or Muhammad and start following the laws brought by Baha'u'llah. But they should also realize that Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment of what those previous manifestation said and taught and should become Baha'is. And once they become Baha'is, they should stop following the laws of their old religion and start following Baha'i laws.

Except there was another manifestation, the Bab. His laws, I guess, never got applied. Which is convenient, since Baha'u'llah broke the one about how many wives a follower of the Bab could have.

Now Jews had a lot of laws. Islam had a lot of laws. The Bab had laws that don't matter. Then Baha'u'llah had a bunch of laws. But what were the laws that Jesus brought? I don't think there was very many. And nothing like the laws of those other religions. But, anyway, who other than the true believers in a religion even want to follow these laws? And if they were so great, since they came from an infallible, all-knowing God, why did people start making secular laws? And even making laws that kept religion out of politics? It's almost as if people didn't like God's laws all that much.

 

[Trailblazer]

I understood that is what you are meant. I do not see how a government can be secular when it is founded on the concepts of divine justice of a given religion. In this case, that religion is Baha'i. This seems like the same setup as the Catholic Church and Holy Roman Empire

I do not think that future governments will be founded on the concepts of divine justice as enunciated by the Baha'i Faith.

The same setup as the Catholic Church had with the Holy Roman Empire is not going to be repeated. The past is gone and the future will be very different from anything humanity has seen thus far.

I do not see any point of speculating about the future since nobody except God knows what the future holds. The UHJ does not know although they feel obligated to respond to inquiries from Baha'is like @Truthseeker.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't wish to try to justify that statement with you...

That's an easy thing to try and see if it's true or not. But... what happens if the copper doesn't change to gold? Or... what if it does?

 

[ppp]

I do not think that future governments will be founded on the concepts of divine justice as enunciated by the Baha'i Faith.

And yet that is the context given.

The same setup as the Catholic Church had with the Holy Roman Empire is not going to be repeated. The past is gone and the future will be very different from anything humanity has seen thus far.

This is hyperbolic.

I do not see any point of speculating about the future since nobody except God knows what the future holds.

This is ridiculous. We speculate on the future every day of our lives. It would be irresponsible not to. It would be suicidsal not to.

 

[CG Didymus]

Allow me to clarify. Why do you think it matters to a non-Baha'i, such as your interlocutor, if Baha'i rules only apply to Baha'i?

What good are these laws, supposedly from God, if only Baha'is follow them? Now, what if the Baha'i Faith actually catches on and becomes the dominant religion? Why wouldn't they make those laws apply to everyone? Like they're going to be okay with people smoking dope and drinking, and in some places already, going to legal places of prostitution. I don't think so. They'll probably vote in people that will make laws that prohibit those things. Of course, for the good of all of us.

 

[CG Didymus]

When Abdul-Baha was saying "Any religion that contradicts science or that is opposed to it, is only ignorance" he was talking to people of other religions, when he spoke to Baha'is he always corrected them on matters of science by insisting on what he saw as revealed truth. Therefore it is clear that he wanted other religions to be subject to science to eradicate their superstitions, but *not* the Baha'i faith in my view.

But, it should apply to the Baha'i faith too.

 

[Trailblazer]

And yet that is the context given.

So what? People can believe whatever they want to believe, but only God knows the future.

This is ridiculous. We speculate on the future every day of our lives. It would be irresponsible not to. It would be suicidsal not to.

I consider speculating about the future, especially the distant future, a complete waste of time.
What do you think you can do about it if it is the will of God? Nothing.

I am reminded of the last part of this prayer of the Bab, a new prayer I just discovered.

"Thou art God, potent art Thou to do what Thou desirest. No one can withstand Thy Will or thwart Thy Purpose."

I adjure Thee by Thy might, O my God!

Baha'i Prayers (English): I adjure Thee by Thy might, O my God! Let no harm beset me in times of tests, and in moments of heedlessness guide my steps aright...

www.bahaiprayers.org

 

[ppp]

So what? People can believe whatever they want to believe, but only God knows the future.

If you dont have anything to say, you don't have to just throw in some stock cliches.

I consider speculating about the future, especially the distant future, a complete waste of time.
What do you think you can do about it if it is the will of God? Nothing.

If it is all some god's will then there is no point in speculating about your dinner tommorow. Or paying your power bill. Or driving with your eyes open. "Will of God" stuff isnt thoughtful. Just morally lazy.