Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[CG Didymus]

This offers the thought, they can all be there.

".... Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise. The Maids of Heaven, inmates of the loftiest mansions, will circle around it, and the Prophets of God and His chosen ones will seek its companionship. With them that soul will freely converse, and will recount unto them that which it hath been made to endure in the path of God, the Lord of all worlds. If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station…. The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men...." Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 155-158

Regards Tony

Okay, who are these "maids of heaven"? Are they mentioned in any other religion? And one of them appeared to Mírzá Ḥusayn-ʻAlí Núrí? Then other religions talk about the afterlife. Why do the stories contradict? Like with Christianity believing in a heaven and a hell?

 

[CG Didymus]

CG, all this is found in the Kitab-i-Iqan.

I asked TB about what it says about Noah... that for 950 years he exhorted his people? I think it was in a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi that says it is not his "dispensation". But that years were counted differently? Plus, there is no mention of an ark or a flood. It's a totally different story. Where did it come from? And, is the flood story wrong then? And where did it come from? As you know some people believe it was taken from the Gilgamesh story. What do Baha'is believe?

 

[Trailblazer]

When Baha'is teach the Faith are they claiming it is the truth? Or, are they saying that they believe it is true, but they might be wrong?

Hopefully Baha'is are not claiming it is the truth but rather they are saying "I believe it is the truth.": No, we don't say we might be wrong because we believe we are right, since we believe it is the truth.

Then, what's this about, "typically without providing evidence or proof"? What's needed and being asked for is evidence and proof. If the Baha'i writings can't provide that, then how does anyone come to believe Baha'u'llah's claims are true?

I have told you what I consider the evidence and proof, and I just posted it to @samtonga43 again:
#2036 Trailblazer, Today at 11:04 AM

What more do you think I or any other Baha'i can do?

For me, I've asked about the supposed "fulfilled" prophecies. Too many of them weren't all that good. As I've said before, one of the best ones is that 1260 days turned into lunar years comes out to 1844 if we start it in 621AD. But then I question Baha'is as to why six times, with six different things, that have something that can be converted into 1260 lunar years, but that begin and end at different times, are all made to start and end at the same time? So you've said that prophecies don't prove anything, because they can be interpreted, and misinterpreted, different ways to show whatever a person wants. Like saying that an earthquake, a smoky day, and a meteor shower halfway around the world and years before 1844, were prophecy fulfilled.

The big prophecy is still hanging out there... When the Messiah comes, he will bring peace. Even that needs a little interpreting to make it mean that Baha'u'llah put the things into motion that would someday lead to peace, but he's long gone and there's no peace yet. So we wait. And ask, "Is he for real?"

As long as you keep going down the road of prophecies you will never discover the truth about Baha'u'llah, but I cannot stop you from doing that and that is not my job. You are going to do what you want to do. But the question is why do you hope for different results when you keep doing the same thing over and over again? Or maybe you don't expect different results or care if you get them.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

You have not shown that they are true.

You have shown claims and said they are proven by nothing but wordplay. I find your wordplay entirely unconvincing, and thus your claims remain unproven. At least, they have not been proven to any reasonable amount.

And I'll tell you now, this wordplay method is always going to be unconvincing. If you want to convince anyone that the claims are true, find another method of demonstrating it.

So what would be a reasonable amount?

The words are not what they seem to be.
Like some people think that they are the sheep of the bible.
But they might just be the cattle of Hell.

I can explain:

Yea, they despised the pleasant land, they believed not his word: Psalm 106:24
But murmured in their tents, and hearkened not unto the voice of the Lord. Psalm 106:25



And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle. Genesis 4:20

For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness. Psalm 84:10

And thou shalt make fifty taches of brass, and put the taches into the loops, and couple the tent together, that it may be one. Exodus 26:11




The Quran shows understanding the cattle:


Or thinkest thou that most of them listen or understand? They are only like cattle;- nay, they are worse astray in Path. 25:44

And do they not see that We do drive rain to parched soil (bare of herbage), and produce therewith crops, providing food for their cattle and themselves? Have they not the vision? 32:27

Eat for yourselves and pasture your cattle: verily in this are signs for men endued with understanding. 20:54

Verily Allah will admit those who believe and do righteous deeds, to Gardens beneath which rivers flow; while those who reject Allah will enjoy (this world) and eat as cattle eat; and the Fire will be their abode. 47:12

Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning). 7:179

And We shall drive the sinners to Hell, like thirsty cattle driven down to water, 19:86


It is He who sends down rain from the sky: from it ye drink, and out of it (grows) the vegetation on which ye feed your cattle. 16:10

The Day that the sky will be like molten brass, 70:8



Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on! 18:29





As I said, the words are not what they seem to be.

Like who actually listens and then eats human dung, and drinks human pi-ss?


But Rabshakeh said, Hath my master sent me to thy master and to thee to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men that sit upon the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own pi-ss with you? Isaiah 36:12



And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. Ezekiel 4:12

Listen carefully: man was then changed into cattle.

Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith. Ezekiel 4:15





Does that not make any sense to you?

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. Ecclesiastes 3:18




I can see Hell sounds worse than it really is.
Yes, they do drink molten brass as the Quran says, because they are brass. Yes like a tent, because they are tent.

I can also see that Hell is the promised land. The land of milk and honey.



But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the Lord your God, which have separated you from other people. Leviticus 20:24


I can see the lion eating straw with the Ox (and the bear).


Can't you see it?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, who are these "maids of heaven"? Are they mentioned in any other religion? And one of them appeared to Mírzá Ḥusayn-ʻAlí Núrí? Then other religions talk about the afterlife. Why do the stories contradict? Like with Christianity believing in a heaven and a hell?

I asked TB about what it says about Noah... that for 950 years he exhorted his people? I think it was in a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi that says it is not his "dispensation". But that years were counted differently? Plus, there is no mention of an ark or a flood. It's a totally different story. Where did it come from? And, is the flood story wrong then? And where did it come from? As you know some people believe it was taken from the Gilgamesh story. What does Baha'is believe?

To me the stories are Metephor explaining the spiritual reality in an outward material form.

We have discussed this in detail and I would have offered this talk by Abdu’l-Baha to explain this, "Intelligible Realities and Their Expression through Sensible Forms", this is a link.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[WonderingWorrier]

@Tiberius.

I showed a bit about the land of milk and honey earlier in this thread.
And its position on the wheel of law (Zodiac).

This is the North part of the wheel and the animals that are there:

And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. Isaiah 11:7

And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi. Ezekiel 48:31


North/Straw.
Three animals:

Lion - Judah
Cattle - Reuben
Levi - Bear

Now the children of Reuben and the children of Gad had a very great multitude of cattle: and when they saw the land of Jazer, and the land of Gilead, that, behold, the place was a place for cattle; Numbers 32:1

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Revelation 5:5

And after a time he returned to take her, and he turned aside to see the carcase of the lion: and behold, there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcase of the lion. Judges 14:8

And the men of the city said unto him on the seventh day before the sun went down, What is sweeter than honey? And what is stronger than a lion? and he said unto them, If ye had not plowed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle. Judges 14:18



But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have seperated you from other people. Leviticus 20:24


Brass is the land of Milk and Honey.
Honey is from the lion. Milk is from the cow.

The lion and the Ox both have Straw (with the bear).

Does that make any sense to you?

Here are some more animals and positions.

East Position / Stubble

3 Animals.
Joseph Sheep
Benjamin Wolf
Dan Horse

And on the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan. Ezekiel 48:32


The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpents meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. Isaiah 65:25

Give ear, O Shepard of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth. Psalm 80:1

Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil. Genesis 49:27

The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that dwell therein. Jeremiah 8:16





West position / Dust

Three animals.

Gad Leopard
Asher Goat
Naphtali Deer


And the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali. Ezekiel 48:34

The Leopard is with the goat and the deer.

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. Isaiah 11:6

Naphtali is a hind let loose: he giveth goodly words. Genesis 49:21

Putting Gad to Leopard and Asher to goat would require more explaining of other verses.


South Position:

And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun. Ezekiel 48:33

Issachar is a strong *** couching down between two burdens: Genesis 49:14

I can show some more detail:

Sheep are on the Eastern side and the goats are on the Western side of the wheel. Sheep on the right, Goats on the left.


As it says:

And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Matthew 25:33

And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. Daniel 8:5

Three levels: Cattle - Goat - Sheep.

And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. Ezekiel 34:17



Notice this verse I showed before has Gad with Reuben in the place of cattle:

Now the children of Reuben and the children of Gad had a very great multitude of cattle: and when they saw the land of Jazer, and the land of Gilead, that, behold, the place was a place for cattle; Numbers 32:1


Gad is higher than cattle.


There is talk about it:

Why abodest thou among the sheepfolds, to hear the bleatings of the flocks? For the divisions of Reuben were great searchings of heart. Judges 5:16

And of Gad he said, Blessed be he that enlargeth Gad: he dwelleth as a lion, and teareth the arm with the crown of the head. Deuteronomy 33:20

The Ethiopians:
Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the Lord. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir? Amos 9:7

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. Jeremiah 13:23




There is no violence in the bible:

To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. proverbs 1:6



Please listen carefully:

Ethiopia, and Libya, and Lydia, and all the mingled people, and Chub, and the men of the land that is in league, shall fall with them by the sword.

Ye Ethiopians also, ye shall be slain by my sword. Zephinaiah 2:12


The Leopard (Ethiopian) is sword.

That's part of the reasoning of why have I put Gad and the Leopard together on the wheel.


I think it is talking about separating cattle.
Like Moses separating the Sea.
And Muhammed separating the Moon.


Just like Jesus picking the corn:

And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. Mark 2:23

For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 1 Corinthians 9:9



Cattle - Goats - Sheep
Sea - River - Stream
Moon - Star - Sun
Corn - Oil - Wine

Same thing.

Thought maybe a refresher on the explanation about the land of milk and honey might help with now comprehending the explanation of the place called Hell.

Same thing.

 

[Tiberius]

It’s not so much that the Universe has no underlying objective reality.
Rather that this ultimate reality, which if it can be said to exist at all, is fluid, mutable, uncertain, and possibly without substance, is something of which we can only ever hope to catch glimpses. It’s the old Newtonian belief that everything in the material world can be calibrated, explained, determined, which no longer serves.

When physicists say things like “The certainties of classical physics are just probabilities. The well-defined and solid picture of the world given by the old physics is an illusion*”, isn’t time to start questioning everything we think we know?

*Carlo Rovelli, Helgoland.

Not quite sure how you can say we can only ever get glimpses of it, but then go on to say with assurance that it is "fluid, mutable, uncertain, and possibly without substance."

 

[Tiberius]

What we can not see is that Faith does offer much to the world and brings great progress. There was a golden age in Islam.

The issue is we are still learning to become humble in that Truth and then use it the way it was not intended.

The future, when mids unite and work for the good of all will be a diamond age.

Regards Tony

Please show me any advancement that came about by purely religious means.

 

[Tiberius]

Fine then, I guess you should just forget about God and religion.

I certainly haven't found anything which requires God or religion.

Okay maybe that is true, but somehow it got translated into what we are reading in English.

The source still clearly stated that there was a secretary who transcribed what he said in shorthand.

That link did not work.

Yeah, seems like a problem with the webpage, I can't get it either. I checked the history in my browser and the pages I went to a few days ago likewise do not work.

Why wouldn't I gather more evidence after I was already a believer? Baha'is believe that we should continue to seek truth throughout our lives. How do you KNOW I did not cast a critical eye over the additional evidence?

I don't know.

How do you know you didn't subconsciously cast a less critical eye over that evidence?

 

[Tiberius]

Yes, there is real world evidence that *shows* that to me and other Baha'is.
I cannot say what that real world evidence will show you and others.

No, you believing the claims he made is not real world evidence.

No, it is not my obligation to prove to anyone else that my beliefs are true just because I say I believe they are true. Baha'u'llah made that perfectly clear that it is not my obligation when He said:

“For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.” Gleanings, p. 143

What that means is that even if I wanted to convince you that my beliefs are true I could never convince you that my beliefs are true because you have to convince yourself of that. Belief has to come from your own mind, not my mind.

Then why are you here?

I had no idea what you were talking about but now I do. See my reply to samtonga43.
#2032 Trailblazer, A moment ago

I shall reply to that post here.

I do understand but I think it is ludicrous because Baha'u'llah does not need to be alive on earth in order to prove who He is. What would He do to bear the burden of proof if He was alive, talk to all 7.8 billion people in the world and say "I am a Messenger of God?"

Anyone can get up and say to the world that they are a messenger from God. It means nothing. It must be supported. If there is no support, the claim should be dismissed.

Did Jesus have to be alive to prove who He was? No, people who lived after Jesus ascended to heaven had the Gospels as proof of what He said and did and what He was like as a Person. Likewise, people living after Baha'u'llah ascended to heaven had the written accounts of what Baha'u'llah was like as a Person and they had the Revelation of Baha'ullah (the documented history) and they had His Writings. We still have all those things today for Christianity and the Baha'i Faith.

The evidence for an actual person named Jesus is scant, and the evidence he was divine is almost non-existent.

 

[Tiberius]

What is intellectually dishonest about being honest regarding interpretations of Bible passages I don't agree with?

Because you disagree with them, not based on the content of the passages themselves, but based purely on whether they agree with your preconceived notions.

I've said many times, what I have is actual evidence *to me* no matter how much you claim it is not.
You cannot determine what constitutes evidence for another person.

And I've told you that if it can't be tested, it's opinion, not evidence. If it only works for you and not for other people, it's opinion, not evidence.

You can call it evidence as much as you like, but that doesn't make it evidence.

 

[Tiberius]

So what would be a reasonable amount?

The words are not what they seem to be.
Like some people think that they are the sheep of the bible.
But they might just be the cattle of Hell.

I can explain:

Yea, they despised the pleasant land, they believed not his word: Psalm 106:24
But murmured in their tents, and hearkened not unto the voice of the Lord. Psalm 106:25



And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle. Genesis 4:20

For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness. Psalm 84:10

And thou shalt make fifty taches of brass, and put the taches into the loops, and couple the tent together, that it may be one. Exodus 26:11




The Quran shows understanding the cattle:


Or thinkest thou that most of them listen or understand? They are only like cattle;- nay, they are worse astray in Path. 25:44

And do they not see that We do drive rain to parched soil (bare of herbage), and produce therewith crops, providing food for their cattle and themselves? Have they not the vision? 32:27

Eat for yourselves and pasture your cattle: verily in this are signs for men endued with understanding. 20:54

Verily Allah will admit those who believe and do righteous deeds, to Gardens beneath which rivers flow; while those who reject Allah will enjoy (this world) and eat as cattle eat; and the Fire will be their abode. 47:12

Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning). 7:179

And We shall drive the sinners to Hell, like thirsty cattle driven down to water, 19:86


It is He who sends down rain from the sky: from it ye drink, and out of it (grows) the vegetation on which ye feed your cattle. 16:10

The Day that the sky will be like molten brass, 70:8



Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on! 18:29





As I said, the words are not what they seem to be.

Like who actually listens and then eats human dung, and drinks human pi-ss?


But Rabshakeh said, Hath my master sent me to thy master and to thee to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men that sit upon the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own pi-ss with you? Isaiah 36:12



And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. Ezekiel 4:12

Listen carefully: man was then changed into cattle.

Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith. Ezekiel 4:15





Does that not make any sense to you?

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. Ecclesiastes 3:18




I can see Hell sounds worse than it really is.
Yes, they do drink molten brass as the Quran says, because they are brass. Yes like a tent, because they are tent.

I can also see that Hell is the promised land. The land of milk and honey.



But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the Lord your God, which have separated you from other people. Leviticus 20:24


I can see the lion eating straw with the Ox (and the bear).


Can't you see it?

Stop wasting your time with the wordplay. Find another line of evidence for your claims.

 

[Tiberius]

@Tiberius.

I showed a bit about the land of milk and honey earlier in this thread.
And its position on the wheel of law (Zodiac).







Thought maybe a refresher on the explanation about the land of milk and honey might help with now comprehending the explanation of the place called Hell.

Same thing.

Why doi you keep trying to use a method which I have already said is worthless? Do you think that using the same flawed method again and again will make it better? You're wasting both my time and yours.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Why doi you keep trying to use a method which I have already said is worthless? Do you think that using the same flawed method again and again will make it better? You're wasting both my time and yours.

I am sorry for wasting your time.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Please show me any advancement that came about by purely religious means.

You have to base material life and its pursuits in spiritual virtues and morality.

This is Faith 101. It is also the builder of civilization, the opposite is the destruction of civilization.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I certainly haven't found anything which requires God or religion.

Who said anything about requirements? Belief in God or religion is a choice.

The source still clearly stated that there was a secretary who transcribed what he said in shorthand.

If you want to know about stuff like that, I'd ask @Truthseeker9.

I don't know.

How do you know you didn't subconsciously cast a less critical eye over that evidence?

I don't know, but the same applies to things you think you are consciously aware of.

According to scientific research, your Conscious Mind makes up less than 10 percent of your total brain function. That means that the Subconscious or unintentional aspect of your mind represents around 90 percent of your total brain function.Dec 8, 2014

Why Your Mind Is Like an Iceberg | HuffPost

 

[Trailblazer]

No, you believing the claims he made is not real world evidence.

I never said it was.
I said: "Yes, there is real world evidence that *shows* that to me and other Baha'is."

Then why are you here?

Because I got an Alert. I answer all my posts unless there is nothing to say.

Anyone can get up and say to the world that they are a messenger from God. It means nothing. It must be supported. If there is no support, the claim should be dismissed.

I fully agree.

The evidence for an actual person named Jesus is scant, and the evidence he was divine is almost non-existent.

Almost all scholars agree that Jesus existed and most agree the crucifixion took place, but they do not agree that Jesus rose from the dead because He didn't and they do not agree that Jesus was God because He wasn't. There is zero evidence that Jesus is God, that is just a religious belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because you disagree with them, not based on the content of the passages themselves, but based purely on whether they agree with your preconceived notions.

No, I disagree based upon what I believe is the meaning of the content of the passages. Christians disagree with me for the same reason, based upon what they believe is the meaning of the content of the passages.

My notions are no more preconceived than Christian notions. As usual, you are being prejudiced against me because I am a Baha'i. Christians can do no wrong in your eyes.

And I've told you that if it can't be tested, it's opinion, not evidence. If it only works for you and not for other people, it's opinion, not evidence.

There is no such thing as universal evidence because what is evidence to one person is not evidence to another person. It might be evidence to another person if they both consider it evidence, or it might not be, if they don't both consider it evidence.

Something is evidence to me because it indicates to me that my beliefs are true.

Something will not be evidence to you unless it indicates to you that the beliefs are true.

You can call it evidence as much as you like, but that doesn't make it evidence.

You can call it not evidence as much as you like, but that doesn't make it not evidence
You cannot determine what constitutes evidence for another person.

I will remind you what the definitions of evidence are and they say NOTHING about testing. That is YOUR personal requirement.
Testable evidence is just something you WANT like a child wants a lollipop.

Evidence: anything that helps to prove that something is or is not true: EVIDENCE | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

There is NOTHING about testing in the definitions of evidence.

 

[night912]

Only if they assert that a belief x is true are they making a claim. Saying I believe x is true is not a claim.

Belief: an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=belief+means

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=claim+means

And I already explained it in post #1914,

Why do so many atheists want to turn a belief into a claim?

It's not a matter of "want," nor does it have anything to do with being atheists/atheism. Whether it's because you don't like it and/or ignorant of how it's properly used, that's just how it is when using philosophy in discussions.

A better question would be, when having a discussion going back and forth with someone else, why do you think that it's any different saying, "I believe that X is true" or "It's just what I believe" or "It's only my beliefs," compared to simply just saying, "X is true," in regards to truth in reality?

Just because you cannot prove that what you believe is actually true, does not mean that it's a subjective (truth) belief. There are two types of truth beliefs, subjective and objective truth beliefs. Subjective beliefs are those that cannot be potentially proven to be true or false. Objective beliefs are those that can potentially be proven to be true or false.

Subjective truth belief: Chocolate ice cream is the best.

Objective truth belief: Baha'u'llah was a messenger of God.

A belief is an attitude that something is the case, or that some proposition about the world is true.[1] In epistemology, philosophers use the term "belief" to refer to attitudes about the world which can be either true or false.[2] To believe something is to take it to be true; for instance, to believe that snow is white is comparable to accepting the truth of the proposition "snow is white". However, holding a belief does not require active introspection. For example, few carefully consider whether or not the sun will rise tomorrow, simply assuming that it will. Moreover, beliefs need not be occurrent (e.g. a person actively thinking "snow is white"), but can instead be dispositional (e.g. a person who if asked about the color of snow would assert "snow is white").[2]
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A truth claim is a proposition or statement that a particular person or belief system holds to be true. The term is commonly used in philosophy in discussions of logic, metaphysics, and epistemology, particularly when discussing the doctrinal statements of religions; however, it is also used when discussing non-religious ideologies.[1]
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State
verb
verb: state; 3rd person present: states; past tense: stated; past participle: stated; gerund or present participle: stating

1. 1.
   express something definitely or clearly in speech or writing.
   "the report stated that more than 51 percent of voters failed to participate"

You did in fact, expressed that Baha'u'llah was a messenger of.

 

[CG Didymus]

As long as you keep going down the road of prophecies you will never discover the truth about Baha'u'llah,

If things that are called "prophecies" don't come true, then they are not prophecies. If a man claims to have fulfilled a prophecy, it should be very clear and obvious he has. So has Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the prophecies of every major, revealed religion? I think most all Baha'is would say, "yes." Then if asked what are some of the prophecies and that's where the problems start. They aren't all that clear and obvious.