Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[CG Didymus]

To me the stories are Metephor explaining the spiritual reality in an outward material form.

We have discussed this in detail and I would have offered this talk by Abdu’l-Baha to explain this, "Intelligible Realities and Their Expression through Sensible Forms", this is a link.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

Okay, thanks

 

[Trailblazer]

Objective beliefs are those that can potentially be proven to be true or false.

Subjective truth belief: Chocolate ice cream is the best.

Objective truth belief: Baha'u'llah was a messenger of God.

'Baha'u'llah was a messenger of God' cannot be proven true or false, not to anyone except oneself.

“For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

'Baha'u'llah was a messenger of God' can never be proven as an objective fact even if it is true. How can anyone prove that Baha'u'llah got messages from a God that can never be proven to exist? It is a faith-based belief supported by the evidence that Baha'u'llah told us to look at that support His claim. After looking at that evidence we either believe or disbelieve that He was making a true claim.

 

[CG Didymus]

How do you know you didn't subconsciously cast a less critical eye over that evidence?

As if people learn more things later, after they've joined a religion or a cult. Some people leave before the cult leader has them all kill themselves. But even Baha'is would hope that people in the other religions would do a re-check of their beliefs as compared to the Baha'i Faith, because they think that all those other religions have added in some false doctrines. Like with Christianity thinking Jesus is God. But, instead, each one thinks it's the others that are wrong. And it's all based on unprovable claims.

 

[Trailblazer]

So has Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the prophecies of every major, revealed religion? I think most all Baha'is would say, "yes." Then if asked what are some of the prophecies and that's where the problems start. They aren't all that clear and obvious.

But just because they are not *clear and obvious* to some people that does not mean does snot mean they were not fulfilled. What is clear and obvious to some people won't be clear and obvious to everyone. That is the problem that can never be overcome because people are all different in how they perceive things.

Then there is a second issue. Some of the prophecies were intended to be fulfilled by the coming of Baha'u'llah and during His lifetime but some of them were never intended to be fulfilled during His lifetime, they were intended to be fulfilled 'sometime' during the 1000 year Messianic age.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'u'llah was a messenger of God cannot be proven true or false, not to anyone except oneself. It can never be proven as an objective fact even if it is true. How can anyone prove that Baha'u'llah got messages from a God that can never be proven to exist? It is a faith-based belief supported by the evidence that Baha'u'llah told us to look at that support His claim. After looking at that evidence we either believe or disbelieve that He was making a true claim.

Again, the Bible and the NT has God and his prophets do things that is tangible proof. Jesus "proved" he was from God by conquering death... allegedly. But rising from the dead and having a prophet call down fire from heaven, we are told by the Baha'is, didn't happen. So it never was real proof. It was just made up stories.

Oh, except I knew Baha'is that claimed to have had visions of Abdul Baha. Have you known any Baha'i to say such a thing? And would you believe them? Another travelling Baha'is teaching was speaking at a meeting of Baha'is about her teaching experiences. She said that on the way to an Indian Reservation, a flash flood had taken out a section of the dirt road. She said she told the driver to back up and floor it. She said the car made the jump. I didn't believe her, How about you? Would you have believed her? But, for some, visions and miracles of others, people they trust, help give them confidence that God is real.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Baha'u'llah also offers as a thought, he asked us why we fight over our grave and asks us to consider past civilization ls, where are all those great civilizations that took materialism to the extremes?

That is the current age. I do not think older civilizations had much materialism. Graves take space unnecesarily. Perhaps we can think of disposing dead in some better way.

 

[CG Didymus]

But just because they are not *clear and obvious* to some people that does not mean does snot mean they were not fulfilled. What is clear and obvious to some people won't be clear and obvious to everyone. That is the problem that can never be overcome because people are all different in how they perceive things.

Then there is a second issue. Some of the prophecies were intended to be fulfilled by the coming of Baha'u'llah and during His lifetime but some of them were never intended to be fulfilled during His lifetime, they were intended to be fulfilled 'sometime' during the 1000 year Messianic age.

Of course they are fulfilled as far as most Baha'is are concerned. But, you know, I ask again and again... How do you start a prophecy from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem when it's about the stopping of the daily sacrifice and the abomination. How do you make six different things, that did not start nor end at the same time, all start in 621AD and end in 1844. How do you make three Woes into three manifestations when the context is talking about God sending disasters and killing people? And I do believe all those things come from Abdul Baha'.

What Bill Sears does in his book doesn't make any sense to me. Earthquakes, smoky "dark" days and meteor showers happen all the time. Is what he says believed by Baha'is? Were those things "fulfillment" of Biblical prophecies? Then we got Maitreya, Kalki, the Messiah, Mahdi's and who knows what else... All need some fancy interpreting to make then all be prophesying about Baha'u'llah. Oh, but since we have The Bab in there also, all of them need to be prophesying about "twin" manifestations. Especially since some, maybe most, of the prophecies are used to get to 1844 and not to when Baha'u'llah declared.

But, like I've said before, the absolute worst "fulfilled " prophecy I think goes to the gospel writers that took one verse, Isaiah 7:14, and made it a prophecy about Jesus being born of a virgin. Nothing in any of the other verses are used or mentioned... only one verse snatched out of context. So it's not only Baha'is I think have done this. Anyway, have a nice evening and I'll check back tomorrow.

 

[Truthseeker]

I beg to differ. My source says: "Baha’u’llah dictated his works so rapidly that his secretary develop his own form of shorthand. It can be read with practice." Also: "Most of Baha’u’llah’s revelations were dictated to his secretary. These were recorded initially in a form of short-hand which became known as ‘revelation writing’."

Your point? That rapidity of dictation is one of the proofs of His Revelation. Try to rapidly dictate a tablet without reflection or looking up quotes He made from the Qur'an, among other things.

 

[Tiberius]

You have to base material life and its pursuits in spiritual virtues and morality.

This is Faith 101. It is also the builder of civilization, the opposite is the destruction of civilization.

Regards Tony

So you have to assume that spirituality is the right method to use in order to show spirituality.

That's kind of like Scientologists using dianetics to show that Scientology is correct, isn't it?

 

[Tiberius]

Who said anything about requirements? Belief in God or religion is a choice.

No it isn't.

Of course, if you disagree, I challenge you to genuinely believe there is no God for one week.

I don't know, but the same applies to things you think you are consciously aware of.

According to scientific research, your Conscious Mind makes up less than 10 percent of your total brain function. That means that the Subconscious or unintentional aspect of your mind represents around 90 percent of your total brain function.Dec 8, 2014

Why Your Mind Is Like an Iceberg | HuffPost

True.

That's why I prefer to use a tool that has methods incorporated that help to reduce and eliminate such subconscious biases.

It's called SCIENCE.

 

[Tiberius]

I never said it was.
I said: "Yes, there is real world evidence that *shows* that to me and other Baha'is."

If it's real world evidence, then it will show EVERYONE.

I fully agree.

And does such support exist for Mr B's claims?

If you're going to say that it exists for you but not for everyone, then I'm going to say that I'm a messenger from God and there's evidence that works for my girlfriend, even if it may not work for you. And that putsd my claim of divinity on equal footing to yours.

Almost all scholars agree that Jesus existed and most agree the crucifixion took place, but they do not agree that Jesus rose from the dead because He didn't and they do not agree that Jesus was God because He wasn't. There is zero evidence that Jesus is God, that is just a religious belief.

This is getting into a whole other discussion, but I'd be happy to continue it in a new thread if you'd like.

 

[Tiberius]

No, I disagree based upon what I believe is the meaning of the content of the passages. Christians disagree with me for the same reason, based upon what they believe is the meaning of the content of the passages.

So, what you have is opinion, not evidence.

My notions are no more preconceived than Christian notions. As usual, you are being prejudiced against me because I am a Baha'i. Christians can do no wrong in your eyes.

I have been extremely critical of Christianity in the past. Do not form a judgement about my views regarding Christianity when we are having a discussion about Baha'i.

There is no such thing as universal evidence because what is evidence to one person is not evidence to another person. It might be evidence to another person if they both consider it evidence, or it might not be, if they don't both consider it evidence.

No, that is subjective opinion. It is not objective evidence.

Something is evidence to me because it indicates to me that my beliefs are true.

Something will not be evidence to you unless it indicates to you that the beliefs are true.

No.

The validity of the evidence does NOT depend on whether it indicates what you want it to indicate.

You can't dismiss evidence just because it says your beliefs are wrong.

You can call it not evidence as much as you like, but that doesn't make it not evidence
You cannot determine what constitutes evidence for another person.

Yes I can. You are dressing up opinion as evidence. That will never make it evidence.

I will remind you what the definitions of evidence are and they say NOTHING about testing. That is YOUR personal requirement.
Testable evidence is just something you WANT like a child wants a lollipop.

Evidence: anything that helps to prove that something is or is not true: EVIDENCE | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

There is NOTHING about testing in the definitions of evidence.

And how do you know if a particular piece of evidence "helps to prove" that something is true? You must test it!

If you DON'T test the evidence, then any idiot can produce anything to support whatever claim they wanted.

If you don't require evidence to be tested, I could easily provide evidence that I was the first person on the moon.

 

[Tiberius]

Your point? That rapidity of dictation is one of the proofs of His Revelation. Try to rapidly dictate a tablet without reflection or looking up quotes He made from the Qur'an, among other things.

I've seen Alex Jones do it lots on Infowars. Just talking and ranting nonstop.

 

[Trailblazer]

Again, the Bible and the NT has God and his prophets do things that is tangible proof. Jesus "proved" he was from God by conquering death... allegedly. But rising from the dead and having a prophet call down fire from heaven, we are told by the Baha'is, didn't happen. So it never was real proof. It was just made up stories.

That is correct, Bahais believe these are just made up stories.
How is this proof? It is just stories that are supposed to be proof, but there is no way to verify the stories so it is not proof. Anyone can write that Jesus "proved" he was from God by conquering death

Oh, except I knew Baha'is that claimed to have had visions of Abdul Baha. Have you known any Baha'i to say such a thing? And would you believe them?

My husband had experienced Abdu'l-Baha's spirit on his pilgrimage back in 1972 and again after he had returned home in the 1980s. I believe him because he is my husband but how is that proof to anyone else? As Abdu'l-Baha said, miracles are only proof to people who witnessed them

Another travelling Baha'is teaching was speaking at a meeting of Baha'is about her teaching experiences. She said that on the way to an Indian Reservation, a flash flood had taken out a section of the dirt road. She said she told the driver to back up and floor it. She said the car made the jump. I didn't believe her, How about you? Would you have believed her? But, for some, visions and miracles of others, people they trust, help give them confidence that God is real.

Visions and miracles are only proof to people who experienced them and possibly those who believe those people. If I did not already believe in Baha'u'llah they would not be proof for me.

 

[Trailblazer]

No it isn't.

Of course, if you disagree, I challenge you to genuinely believe there is no God for one week.

I never said that disbelief in God is a choice. Once we see the evidence for God we cannot just disbelieve it.

True.

That's why I prefer to use a tool that has methods incorporated that help to reduce and eliminate such subconscious biases.

It's called SCIENCE.

The problem is that you cannot use science as a tool to prove God or religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

If it's real world evidence, then it will show EVERYONE.

It never will show everyone and it is illogical to believe that.
You are living in a fantasy world.

And does such support exist for Mr B's claims?

If you're going to say that it exists for you but not for everyone, then I'm going to say that I'm a messenger from God and there's evidence that works for my girlfriend, even if it may not work for you. And that putsd my claim of divinity on equal footing to yours.

Yes, I am going to say that not everyone recognizes the evidence that supports Baha'u'llah's claims because it is logic 101 as to why that is the case. Until you realize that you are just spitting in the wind. It is completely insane to expect EVERYONE to view the same evidence in the same way. That would be logically impossible unless everyone had the same exact brain and thought exactly the same way, but any scientist knows that is NOT the case. This is so ridiculous it is not even worth talking about.

I think it is is that your bias is so great they you cannot think logically. You WANT some kind of magic evidence that everyone would recognize as evidence but that can never happen and that is why not everyone will be a Baha'i, at least not for hundreds of years. The world is rapidly changing and will continue to change and eventually everyone will recognize Baha'ul'lah as a Messenger of God, but those who recognize Him now are getting in on the ground floor.

You can say or claim whatever you want, but your expectations are drop dead illogical.

This is getting into a whole other discussion, but I'd be happy to continue it in a new thread if you'd like.

Are you still open to belief in Jesus?

 

[samtonga43]

No, that is not what I mean. AGAIN:

Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His mission and works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:

God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote can be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

The Words of Baha'u'llah are His Writings, and they are part of the evidence that support His claims.

We all have varying amounts of faith. The Gospels are proof to many Christians.

I have faith that there can be no 'PROOF'.
Do you agree with me?

 

[Trailblazer]

So, what you have is opinion, not evidence.

What I have is an interpretation of Bible verses, just like Christians have an interpretation.
There is no evidence that can prove either one of us is right.

I have been extremely critical of Christianity in the past. Do not form a judgement about my views regarding Christianity when we are having a discussion about Baha'i.

But the past is the past, I am talking about the here and now.

No, that is subjective opinion. It is not objective evidence.

There is no such thing as objective evidence. There is just evidence and it is viewed differently by different people.

No.

The validity of the evidence does NOT depend on whether it indicates what you want it to indicate.

Likewise, the validity of the evidence does NOT depend on whether it indicates what YOU want it to indicate.

You are assuming that I want it to indicate something because I want to believe my beliefs are true. That is not the case at all. I looked at the evidence and I interpreted it and determined what it meant.

You can't dismiss evidence just because it says your beliefs are wrong.

Likewise, you can't dismiss evidence just because it says my beliefs are right.

Yes I can. You are dressing up opinion as evidence. That will never make it evidence.

No, I have a belief and it is based upon the evidence that Baha'u'llah delineated..
You will never make it not evidence for me because it is evidence for me.

And how do you know if a particular piece of evidence "helps to prove" that something is true? You must test it!

If you DON'T test the evidence, then any idiot can produce anything to support whatever claim they wanted.

If you don't require evidence to be tested, I could easily provide evidence that I was the first person on the moon.

No, I do not have to test it to know it is evidence because God created me with a brain and a mind so I have the capacity to recognize evidence for a Messenger of God.

“I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

 

[Trailblazer]

I have faith that there can be no 'PROOF'.
Do you agree with me?

No.

 

[samtonga43]

If they are my own interpretations it is possible they could be discounted but they cannot be discounted if they were interpreted by Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l-Baha and the 'good reason' is in the passage below.

The assumption being that MrB’s interpretation was sound.

Since I believe that Baha’u’llah was the Representative of God among men and He appointed interpreters through His Covenant, if any of them interpreted the Bible, their interpretation is the bottom line as far as I am concerned, so if any other interpretation contradicts their interpretation I am certain it can be discounted.

The assumption being that the appointed by MrB's interpreters' interpretation was sound.