Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[CG Didymus]

You are free to believe whatever you want to, but you might as well can the Baha'i Faith if you believe what Christians believe these verses mean because the Christian interpretation and the Baha'i interpretation are incompatible.

You cannot have it both ways. If Baha'u'llah was not the Comforter and the Spirit of truth that the Bible verses refer to then he was a liar, a false prophet, not a Manifestation of God. You are free to believe that if you want to but in that case I cannot understand why you would still be considering the Baha'i Faith and if you aren't then why keep talking about it? Why not just become a Christian and call it a day?

Baha’u’llah clearly refers to Himself as the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth in these passages:

“Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, "I go away, and come again unto you"? 2 Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: "When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth." 3 And yet behold how, when He did bring the truth, ye refused to turn your faces towards Him, and persisted in disporting yourselves with your pastimes and fancies. Ye welcomed Him not, neither did ye seek His Presence, that ye might hear the verses of God from His own mouth, and partake of the manifold wisdom of the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the All-Wise. Ye have, by reason of your failure, hindered the breath of God from being wafted over you, and have withheld from your souls the sweetness of its fragrance. Ye continue roving with delight in the valley of your corrupt desires. By God! Ye, and all ye possess, shall pass away. Ye shall, most certainly, return to God, and shall be called to account for your doings in the presence of Him Who shall gather together the entire creation.”The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 191

I said I believe some things about the Baha'i Faith but not everything. Same with Christianity.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not you, but some "true" believers are wrong... but they think they are absolutely right and they end up doing some radical things. Like crashing planes into buildings. Drinking Kool-Aid. Blowing up clinics they believe are killing living souls.

But everyone on this forum knows that I am a Baha'i, so my question still stands: why does it bother other people so much that I believe with certainty?

 

[CG Didymus]

I have already explained that many times, but you do not accept my explanations so why should I explain it again?

Yes we all know. Those other religion's Scriptures aren't 100% authentic. They've been misinterpreted and had man made traditions added in. Like that thing about Ishmael, not Isaac, take to be sacrificed. Since it is in the Hebrew Bible I guess it's not 100% authentic. I just don't see when and how such a change could have happened. Do you? Never mind, I know... you don't care. It's not your job. You live in the present. But, you'd think that a change like that could be traced. Bible fragments that had the "correct" story with Ishmael and then later fragments that had Isaac.

 

[Trailblazer]

I didn't mention your name in there. That's just a generalization. What, not you, would a Baha'i desire the conclusion of anything to be? That the Baha'i Faith is right. I gave the example of the Creation Story. Baha'is come to a different conclusion than born again Christians.

And so what if most Baha's do want it to be true? What they want is not what makes it true. It is either true or false, and everyone has to decide what to believe about that on their own.

But I'm so sorry God is making you do something you don't have any desire to do. What's up with that?

God is not making me do it, I do it only because I believe that is what God wants me to do.
I do lots of things I do not want to do because I think I should do them and they are in my best interest overall.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes we all know.

Then why keep asking over and over again? That is what i don't understand.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh, now I understand. So you reject the words and deeds of the other manifestations, including The Bab. And don't USE anything Abdul Baha, Shoghi Effendi or any of the things from the UHJ. Only the words of Baha'u'llah.

Sorry, that is not exactly what I meant. I accept the words and deeds of any Manifestation of God, if I know their words and deeds; so I accept the words and deeds of the Bab and Baha'u'llah or any other Manifestation of God, because they are not mortal men.

“…… inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 3-4

 

[CG Didymus]

Nobody got pushed out unless they were Covenant-breakers, and they deserved to get pushed out.

From a Modest Proposal...

Since the fourth epoch of the Age of Transition has dawned, and momentous events both within and without the Baha'i community have ushered in our rapid emergence from obscurity, a new sense of maturation and openness has begun to infuse the followers of Baha'u'llah. No longer a minuscule band of true believers braving the odds in a hostile world, the worldwide Baha'i community is now a dynamic, awakening force; its millions of adherents flexing new spiritual muscle...

No objective observer could fail to recognize the signal growth and maturation of the American Baha'i community since its inception 91 years ago. Moving from a tiny enclave of co-religionists to what has now become a well-known and dynamic community of faith, the Baha'is of the United States far outweigh in activity and influence our modest size of about 100,000 believers. However, there is clear and compelling evidence that the fortunes of the United States Baha'i community have stagnated, at least by some objective measures, within the past decade. Americans are loathe to face such stagnancy or admit that any decline is occurring, but even a cursory look at a few basic facts and indicators reveals the trends...

Declarations have slowed to a maintenance pace... Youth declarations have dropped even more precipitously... the American Baha'i community has yet to achieve anything close to widespread enrollments and the beginning of the process of "entry by troops" expected here for over a decade... Inactivity and alienation are difficult to measure quantitatively. However, the most commonly accepted gauge of inactivity-Baha'is who are listed as being "address unknown" status-now comprise a staggering percentage of the total community: 40-45,000 names of 100,000 believers...

The purpose of this essay is to attempt a beginning at the discussion of potential remedies for our plight. `Abdu'l-Baha assures us that the solutions to tests and difficulties come from frank and honest consultation. Hopefully, this proposal will serve to launch earnest and soul-searching discussion within the community...
​

After going through different issues and proposing a remedy, at the end the editor wrote this...

This article never appeared in print. The editors submitted it for "review" (in-house official Baha'i prepublication censorship) to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, and actually met with two members of that body in the spring of 1988. At National Convention in April 1988, the authors and editors were condemned for even thinking about publishing such a document. The editors, heart-broken, ceased publication of Dialogue.

• 
  

 

[Trailblazer]

All I said is that if something gets translated that has something in it that strikes you as being off base a little, what are you going to do?

I would question it and wonder why it sounded a little off base. It is possible that a translation could be wrong.

Right now I think Christians and Baha'is are wrong about using Isaiah as a prophecy of Jesus being born by a virgin. Why do you believe it? Probably not because Christians believe it, but because Baha'u'llah said so. I think an honest, unbiased study of it would lead a person to see that it has nothing to do with Jesus some 700 years later, but is about a boy born then.

The question is why you think you know more than both the Christians and the Baha'is?
It is obvious to me from the context that it is about Jesus, not some boy born then.

Isaiah 7

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

 

[CG Didymus]

I did. I explained more than once what Baha'is believe in the Virgin Birth. It is because Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, and Shoghi Effendi validated it. A such, I don't give a rip how Jews or how anyone else interprets the Bible.

1637. Christ, Virgin Birth of

"First regarding the birth of Jesus Christ. In light of what Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá have stated concerning this subject it is evident that Jesus came into this world through the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, and that consequently His birth was quite miraculous. This is an established fact, and the friends need not feel at all surprised, as the belief in the possibility of miracles has never been rejected in the Teachings. Their importance, however, has been minimized."

(From a letter dated December 31, 1937 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)

1639. Bahá’í Teachings in Agreement with Doctrines of Catholic Church Concerning the Virgin Birth

"With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth of Jesus: On this point, as on several others, the Bahá’í Teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church. In the 'Kitáb-i-Íqán' (Book of Certitude) p. 56, and in a few other Tablets still unpublished, Bahá’u’lláh confirms, however indirectly, the Catholic conception of the Virgin Birth. Also ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in the 'Some Answered Questions', Chap. XII, p. 73, explicitly states that 'Christ found existence through the Spirit of God' which statement necessarily implies, when viewed in the light of the text, that Jesus was not the son of Joseph."

(From a letter dated October 14, 1945 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)

Lights of Guidance/Christ - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

I asked you to read it for yourself. Obviously, you can't evaluate things without your Baha'i bias. Isaiah 7:14 is totally and completely taken out of context. Two of the gospel writers made it into a prophecy and told two contradictory birth stories about Jesus, and Baha'is support it? And again, why accept that and reject the resurrections? Only because Baha'u'llah said so and you believe, without question, everything he says.

 

[CG Didymus]

But everyone on this forum knows that I am a Baha'i, so my question still stands: why does it bother bothers other people so much that I believe with certainty?

If what you believe is true, then no problem. You should stand up for it. But others, like born again Christians, do the same thing. Wouldn't it be nice if they could see the errors in their beliefs? But no, they are "certain" the Bible is true, literally true.

 

[Trailblazer]

Love of which God?

Baha'is say the God of all the major religions is the one and same God... The real God. But even that God has had people define him differently.

Love of the one true God. It does not matter how God was defined. God is God.

 

[samtonga43]

Believers choose to believe when they have faith.
Believers choose to no longer believe when they lose their faith.
Atheists choose not to believe because they have no faith.

You had faith before you believed?

 

[Trailblazer]

This article never appeared in print. The editors submitted it for "review" (in-house official Baha'i prepublication censorship) to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, and actually met with two members of that body in the spring of 1988. At National Convention in April 1988, the authors and editors were condemned for even thinking about publishing such a document. The editors, heart-broken, ceased publication of Dialogue.

That is a real shame. It is obvious to me that the Baha'i administration does not want to hear the truth about the failure of the Faith to grow in America. They just want to pretend it is not happening. BahaiTeachings.org - Personal perspectives inspired by Baha'i teachings does more for the growth of Baha'i Faith than any Baha'i communities I know about. The Baha'i Faith is a well kept secret and the Baha'i administration should be trying to do something about it. Instead they have meetings and have devotionals. It's sad really and I want no part of it.

 

[CG Didymus]

Then why keep asking over and over again? That is what i don't understand.

Because this is a debate forum. But, you do realize, Baha'is keep saying the same questionable things are true. So the same kinds of questions are going to keep being asked. But, you do realize I'm, and I'd suspect the others, are learning a lot about the Baha'i Faith and what it teaches. Just some of it don't make sense.

 

[samtonga43]

Yes, the two and two you are talking about do add up to whatever you say it does. But those verses don't necessarily mean what you and the Baha'i Faith says they mean. I believe the Christian interpretation of their own Scriptures. I might not believe their Scriptures are true, but I believe how they interpreted them.

I agree with them, this is about their Holy Spirit. It is not a prophecy about Baha'u'llah. It was written well after the event at Pentecost and could easily have been made to fit.

Are you speaking of John 16:12-14?
If so, Jesus spoke these words before the Cross and before Pentecost.

 

[CG Didymus]

Sorry, that is not exactly what I meant. I accept the words and deeds of any Manifestation of God, if I know their words and deeds; so I accept the words and deeds of the Bab and Baha'u'llah or any other Manifestation of God, because they are not mortal men.

“…… inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 3-4

I know. But I couldn't pass up giving you a hard time. Sorry. Well I'm posting from page 112. I know that lots of my posts will be coming up in later, but I gotta quit. I'm sure you won't mind that. I don't know how you can keep going. See you tomorrow.

 

[Trailblazer]

I asked you to read it for yourself. Obviously, you can't evaluate things without your Baha'i bias. Isaiah 7:14 is totally and completely taken out of context. Two of the gospel writers made it into a prophecy and told two contradictory birth stories about Jesus, and Baha'is support it? And again, why accept that and reject the resurrections? Only because Baha'u'llah said so and you believe, without question, everything he says.

I do not know or care how the Isaiah 7 was written. I never said that Baha'is support Isaiah 7, I said I uphold the Virgin Birth.

Yes, I believe everything Baha'u'llah wrote without question because I believe He was a Manifestation of God who spoke for God. If what I believe bothers you I think you should ask yourself why.

Baha'u'llah did not write specifically about the resurrection of Jesus so I disbelieve in it for my own reasons, mainly because there is no reason to believe it ever happened, but you already know my stance on that.

 

[Trailblazer]

If what you believe is true, then no problem. You should stand up for it. But others, like born again Christians, do the same thing. Wouldn't it be nice if they could see the errors in their beliefs? But no, they are "certain" the Bible is true, literally true.

Apparently, the difference between you and me is that what other people believe or disbelieve does not bother me one single bit. Do you see me going on any threads telling Christians they are wrong? Do you see me telling atheists they are wrong? No, everyone has a right to believe whatever they choose to believe or disbelieve. I am only responsible to God for myself, not for what other people believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because this is a debate forum. But, you do realize, Baha'is keep saying the same questionable things are true. So the same kinds of questions are going to keep being asked.

But once the SAME questions are answered, why are the SAME questions asked over and over again\?

But, you do realize I'm, and I'd suspect the others, are learning a lot about the Baha'i Faith and what it teaches. Just some of it don't make sense.

And it probably never will make sense unless you come to understand what it is all about and how it fits together.

 

[Trailblazer]

You had faith before you believed?

Yes, I had to have some faith in order to believe, but my faith increased astronomically after I initially believed.