Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

So where exactly does choice come into it?

Believers choose to believe when they have faith.
Believers choose to no longer believe when they lose their faith.
Atheists choose not to believe because they have no faith.

 

[CG Didymus]

The spiritual assemblies only get involved if someone brings disrepute to the Faith in pubic. They don't get involved in people's private lives.

I always have extra food because I only go shopping twice a week. I never plan ahead. i only know if I have things to do that are time sensitive, like appointments. I never planned for retirement but I might be forced to retire next month. I have done all I can do to prevent it but if it happens I will deal with it and go on to a new chapter of my life. It is my faith that allows me not to be totally anxious and depressed over this. This whole country is collapsing before our very eyes and Biden is trying to control everything like a dictator. It is too sickening to watch the news anymore, but at least I am aware of what is happening. This old world order is being rolled up and a new one will be spread out in its stead.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

But it is the business of Baha'i leadership to make sure people calling themselves Baha'is aren't doing things that hurt or embarrass the Faith.

This is what I'm talking about...

...When Baha'i scriptures support scholarship, conservative administrators were quite mistrustful of what has been called "the culture of critical discourse" of these young intellectuals. There had been a few clashes between the two, even before the rise of cyberspace. In the late '70s, some of them formed a study group in the Los Angeles area, putting out a small, local newsletter. This newsletter was effectively silenced when the National Spiritual Assembly insisted that it be subject to "prepublication review" -- a requirement for all publications by Baha'i writers when they address Baha'i subjects, even when the material is being sent to non-Baha'i publishers. This review process, which Baha'i officials insist is not censorship, is resented by many Baha'i writers and intellectuals. The effect on the community at large is that before the popularity of the Internet in the '90s, few Baha'is had ever heard anything but "official" views concerning Baha'i issues.

Another attempt at getting unofficial views published in the community was the magazine Dialogue, which was published briefly in the mid-1980s. Although the editors and staff cooperated with the often cumbersome review process, the magazine was viewed with great suspicion by the National Spiritual Assembly. At the 1988 National Convention, when delegates from around the country gathered to elect the next year's Assembly, External Affairs Secretary Firuz Kazemzadeh denounced a particular article slated for publication called A Modest Proposal and described those involved with the magazine as "dissidents". Faced with such hostility, and with their reputation thus ruined in the eyes of the community, the editors stopped publication.​

I had met and heard some of the people involved in the "Dialogue" magazine speak. They got in big trouble. That's why I think there will be and already is a divide between conservative and liberal Baha'is. The conservative ones are always going to win, because they follow the rules more strictly and there's probably more of them get in leadership positions.

 

[CG Didymus]

These are not 'other' people. They were given authority by virtue of the Covenant of Baha'u'llah.

(W)e will never discover the truth for ourselves if we use the words and deeds of other people as a standard by which to understand God and His Prophets.

They are not "you", so that makes them "other" people. But I understand why you trust and believe them. It's just those other "other" people you don't believe in. These people are from God.

 

[CG Didymus]

I had to check and check before I was willing to believe, but once I had checked I trusted that whatever Baha'u'llah wrote was the truth.

You came to trust that he spoke the truth by what you had read. But, you haven't read everything. If something gets translated that is little fishy, you've already committed yourself to believe it. That's not "free" thinking anymore. And maybe you don't trust your opinions anymore anyway. Maybe you think that "God knows best, not me" and you're willing to believe whatever the writings say?

 

[Subduction Zone]

This has nothing to do with admitting I might be wrong, it has to do with certitude of my beliefs.
Why should I be "willing" to admit my beliefs might not be true to other people?

The one hundred million dollar question is why it bothers other people so much that I believe with certainty. This is not about ME being right, it is about what I believe God has granted to me and to other Baha'is.

When people call me arrogant they are the ones who are arrogant because they insist they know something about me they could not possibly ever know. Thus they have an exaggerated sense of their own abilities.

arrogant:
having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=arrogant+means

My certitude is not anything you or @samtonga43 could ever understand because that certitude comes from God.

“Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation. The memory of this night will never be forgotten. May it never be effaced by the passage of time, and may its mention linger for ever on the lips of men.”

(Baha'u'llah, quoted by Shoghi Effendi in The Dawn-Breakers, p. 586)

The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586

No one is debating whether you believe in your faith. The problem is that you are not approaching your belief rationally. Now if you simply admit that you belief is irrational people will let you be, for the most part. It is when one tries to claim a rational belief that one takes on both a burden of proof and needs at least a touch of humility.

 

[CG Didymus]

The spiritual teachings do not change but the social teachings and laws change.

The first part of the Religion of God which refers to spiritual truth is the same in every religion. The second part of the Religion of God which refers to material things is different in each religion. It changes in each prophetic cycle to accommodate the needs of the times.

In the following passage, the Law of God refers to the divinely revealed religion of God. The spiritual message (spiritual virtues and divine qualities) are the same in all the great world religions:

“the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......

These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.

The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 47-48

And that's what I was saying... I think spiritual teachings have changed. Are there multiple Gods? Is there a Satan? Some people will go to heaven some will go to hell?

 

[CG Didymus]

I think you can add two and two and do the math.

1. Jesus said:

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

2. Baha'u'llah said:

“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85

“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19

That's true and usually the one religion comes after has a better understanding of the one that came before, given religion progresses over time. For example, the Jews still don't recognize Jesus so Christians know something really major that Jews don't know.

Yes, the two and two you are talking about do add up to whatever you say it does. But those verses don't necessarily mean what you and the Baha'i Faith says they mean. I believe the Christian interpretation of their own Scriptures. I might not believe their Scriptures are true, but I believe how they interpreted them.

I agree with them, this is about their Holy Spirit. It is not a prophecy about Baha'u'llah. It was written well after the event at Pentecost and could easily have been made to fit.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well that's easy to solve. We can determine at what point a person is so prolific that they must be from God. Then, anyone that can write that fast will be made into a manifestation of God... a virtual God amongst men... a giant amidst us mere mortals and all that good stuff.

But really, he was a nice guy and unjustly did some time. Writing and dictating fast kind of shows that somebody upstairs must have been helping him. And it must have been God... 'Cause who else but God would have somebody write about how great and magnificent he was?

This is not really about quantity and rapidity, it is all about quality. Then in offering that, on the other hand the rapidity and quantity of the quality provided, is then applicable.

I had a thread that offers that True Faith, which all ties into the Word given by God, has the ability to teach itself. That Word becomes the highest aspirations we can climb to.

So one has to ask themselves, is that word applicable to this day, is all we can aspire to found in that Message?

Give it a go CG, what is the best vision you have for humanuty as a whole? Think of that question in a spiritual sense, not as a material outlook (though both will evolve together) and if you provide that vision to us, maybe we can show you where you have drawn those thoughts from.

Another thing to consider about quality of the Word is that from the pen of Baha'u'llah there is no pause nor corrections. The works was delivered in one or a few sessions with no pause during the sessions.

When scribes took down what was said Baha'u'llah could correct where they had made a mistake, yet this we revelation without pause or preconceived knowledge.

Baha'u'llah said this is not from himself.

"... This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be still when the tempestuous winds are blowing? Nay, by Him Who is the Lord of all Names and Attributes! They move it as they list."

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, the two and two you are talking about do add up to whatever you say it does. But those verses don't necessarily mean what you and the Baha'i Faith says they mean. I believe the Christian interpretation of their own Scriptures. I might not believe their Scriptures are true, but I believe how they interpreted them.

I agree with them, this is about their Holy Spirit. It is not a prophecy about Baha'u'llah. It was written well after the event at Pentecost and could easily have been made to fit.

That is great CG, you have made a choice, you are a Christain and I wish you all the best in life and faith.

A Baha'i does not wish to alter your choices, so now we can stop the endless debate and we will meet you on the street working in the community for the good of all. We can be united in our diversity with acts of true faith.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And that's what I was saying... I think spiritual teachings have changed. Are there multiple Gods? Is there a Satan? Some people will go to heaven some will go to hell?

Is that Spirit or is that Doctrine?

The spiritual teachings eminate from the apex of virtue and morality, anything less than that, is not spiritual, but teachings clouded by the material world.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

By all rights, Baha'is only have to explain one religion, the Baha'i Faith.

Yes, explain the Baha'i Faith. Explain how the Baha'i Faith believes all the major religions are true, yet... have many false teachings in them. And some are in the Scriptures of the religions. They are not later additions.

The Baha'i Faith says that Baha'u'llah is the return of every promised one of every religion and has fulfilled all the prophecies from all those different religions. Okay, what prophecies? How did he fulfill them?

Baha'is say that Krishna is a manifestation of God. He is not an incarnation of the God Vishnu. Okay, why do you believe that? Doesn't that make what the Hindu Scriptures say wrong then?

You're not the right person to be asked these questions. You have said with similar questions that you "don't care". But that doesn't mean that if the Baha'i Faith says these things that some Baha'i should give quotes or some reason the Baha'i Faith believes these things.

Oh, and what are these "rights"? "The rights of all Baha'is shall include not having to answer anything they don't want to. But it is okay to say things that are controversial and will cause many people to ask questions."

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe the Christian interpretation of their own Scriptures. I might not believe their Scriptures are true, but I believe how they interpreted them.

That is great CG, you have made a choice, you are a Christain and I wish you all the best in life and faith.

Better read it again. I believe that the "comforter" verses are talking about the Holy Spirit and are not a prophecy about someone coming nearly 2000 years later.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How does the Baha'i Faith define the "Holy Spirit"? I know it is not how trinitarian Christians define it. To them, the Holy Spirit is God.

A good Metephor of the Holy Spirit is represented by the rays that eminate from the sun.

God being the Sun to which the essence can not be known, the Ray's being the Holy Spirit, the white light made up of all the wave of light which radiate outwards to give life to all creation. The perfect mirror (the Messenger) then reflects that Spirit to all humanity and our eyes are the prisms to which the light is refracted and we can choose to see all the colour as one white light, or we choose to see it in all the different colours, or we choose but one colour, or we go into the dark and see none of that light.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Better read it again. I believe that the "comforter" verses are talking about the Holy Spirit and are not a prophecy about someone coming nearly 2000 years later.

That's OK, if that is what you see.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

So you are looking at everything that everyone has to say, not just the experts, but also Johnny Crackpot who thinks the vaccine is going to implant 5G treacking chips and everything in between. And you're going to end up having your viewpoint skewed away from the objectively true towards to conspiracy theorist's viewpoint because of your refusal to reject the claims that are unsupported.

No, I am not looking at everything. I don't look at what I consider to be crackpots or conspiracy theorists but I look at other views that I consider valid. This is a very good example of what people believe is objectively true being absolute truth. It isn't, because nobody has proven it and they cannot prove it, all they have is an opinion. One cannot prove the damage a vaccine does to the overall immune system that people will need to fight off 'other diseases' in the future and the so-called experts don't want you to know about that because they are pushing the vaccine. No other vaccines were ever put on the market in a year, all were researched for 16-10 years and they were not put on the market if there were any adverse reactions to them. This is researchable. Nobody knows what might be discovered about the Covid vaccines in the future because the future is not here yet. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Sure we know that the the Covid vaccines prevent severe illness and death in most cases based upon the statistics, but you are rather naive if you believe it is safe just because the experts say that. Many people have died from the vaccine and many have had severe adverse reactions that caused permanent disabilities. I don't want to hear that getting Covid is worse because more people have died of Covid than have dies of the vaccine because getting Covid can cause severe illness or death, because that is a moot point. If people are around other people all the time then they should take the vaccine or be routinely tested, but it they are not at risk of getting Covid there is no reason to get the vaccine. I do not need the vaccine because I never come into contact with anyone except my husband so me getting the vaccine would be like me wearing a seat belt around the house in case I might get in a car accident.

You don't think that the claims have different levels of validity based on who makes them? Claim made by scientist who has been studying virology and the immune system for years = highly valid. Claim made by some who's been reading conspiracy websites = Not valid at all.

I never read conspiracy websites. There are scientists who have been studying virology who do not agree with the scientists who support everyone taking the vaccine.

Apparently you think this are either provaxxers and antivaxxers but there are other people who are not either. I am not a provaxxer or an antivaxxer, I just think that people should have a choice as to what they put into their body.

You miss the point. Something being checkable and something being testable is the same thing.

No, it is not the same. I can check something out by reading about it. I don't need to test it.

If something is historical fact, it can be tested. Please read again my post 2213.

You can't test religious claims, which is exactly why I have been saying that religious claims are not a valid source to base a worldview on.

All historical facts cannot be tested. What is valid for you is not valid for everyone and vice versa.

You can base your worldview on anything you want to base it on and I will base my worldview on what I want to base it on. We can all choose because we have free will.

When your religion claims Christianity proves it is true, it is very much important that your claims about it are correct.

My religion does not say that Christianity proves it is true, all we say is that we believe the Bible is a holy book.

 

[Trailblazer]

I had met and heard some of the people involved in the "Dialogue" magazine speak. They got in big trouble. That's why I think there will be and already is a divide between conservative and liberal Baha'is. The conservative ones are always going to win, because they follow the rules more strictly and there's probably more of them get in leadership positions.

Baha'is are human so they will have differing viewpoints. Some will be more liberal and some more conservative but that does not have to divide us. We are all Baha'is under the Covenant of Baha'u'llah.

 

[CG Didymus]

Is that Spirit or is that Doctrine?

The spiritual teachings eminate from the apex of virtue and morality, anything less than that, is not spiritual, but teachings clouded by the material world.

Regards Tony

Verses saying who and what God is, or who the Gods are, are not social teachings. Now if you say that the people wrote these things and later made them "Scripture" and they described their God or Gods with the things their culture believed to be true, I'd say that is fine. It was their truth. It was not "The Truth". Therefore, other people and cultures had different ideas, that they made up, to describe God.

Also, something like the creation story in the Bible. That is not a "social" teaching. You say it is allegorical. That's fine with me. But would that make it a "social" teaching? The problem is that I don't think the religious leaders took it and taught it as allegorical... not until more liberal forms of the religion developed. And, if it were taught that it is just an allegorical story, why believe the characters in the story were real? Like God and Adam? Why wouldn't they be fictional too?

 

[night912]

I get to have an opinion which beliefs are false but God determines which beliefs are true or false.

That is the way it will be with religion, different opinions and conclusions. You can take it or leave it.

When someone gives their opinion, in regards to religion, I take it as it's their opinion and leave. But when someone is making truth claims, like how you've done on numerous occasions, I have to check/test to see if my reality is truly like how they claimed it to be. I'm not gullible to just take what they said as being true, nor am I arrogant to automatically dismiss it as being false. And after finishing my investigation, if possible, I would compare my results with that person and ask more questions to in order to be more accurate and/or closer to the truth.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'is are human so they will have differing viewpoints. Some will be more liberal and some more conservative but that does not have to divide us. We are all Baha'is under the Covenant of Baha'u'llah.

But some of these guys got pushed out. That's divisive.

 

[Trailblazer]

Better read it again. I believe that the "comforter" verses are talking about the Holy Spirit and are not a prophecy about someone coming nearly 2000 years later.

I believe they are talking about the Holy Spirit but they are also a prophecy about the Comforter who was the one who would bring the Holy Spirit nearly 2000 years later. I have explained this dozens of times to Christians. Below is one of those explanations, I have many, many more.

The Holy Spirit cannot proceed from anyone but God. The Holy Spirit was sent by God to Jesus and Baha'u'llah and they brought the Holy Spirit to humanity.

The Holy Spirit was sent by God to Jesus and descended upon Jesus as a Dove. The Holy Spirit was sent by God to Baha’u’llah and descended upon Baha’u’llah as a Maiden in the Black Pit prison in 1852 AD.

Having received the Holy Spirit from God, both Jesus and Baha’u’llah brought the Holy Spirit to humanity. The Comforter and Spirit of truth are just titles for the man who brings the Holy Spirit. Jesus was a Comforter and Baha'u'llah was another Comforter who taught all things and testified of Jesus.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Baha'u'llah was also called the Spirit of truth because He guided us into all truth and He glorified Jesus. He did not speak of Himself, He only spoke what He heard from the Holy Spirit. It was the Holy Spirit speaking through Baha'u'llah that taught us all things, not the man.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Christians believe that the Holy Spirit lives inside of people and does all the things on the bulleted list below, but it makes no sense that a Holy Spirit living inside of people could do the following things that are in John 14, 15 and 16. Only a Manifestation of God who brought the Holy Spirit could do those things:

· Teach you all things
· Call to remembrance what Jesus said
· Testify of Jesus
· Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
· Guide you into all truth
· Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
· Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment