Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

You said you couldn't choose to disbelieve because you still believed, for example (which makes about as much sense as saying you can't choose to stand up because you're still sitting down...)

What I meant was that I could not choose to disbelieve if I still believe. I would need a reason to relinquish my belief.

I would have to lose my faith in order to become a nonbeliever. I guess that was what happened to you some time ago, if you ever believed at all.

 

[Trailblazer]

Funny how that never happens with any other kind of evidence except for religious "evidence", isn't it?

It does happen with other kinds of evidence. For example, the so-called experts say the Covid vaccines are 'safe and effective' but I am not going to believe that just because 'they' say so. I would have to prove it to myself by looking at all of the evidence, not just the biased evidence, and I have yet to do so because I have no need and no plans to take it.

Oh, wait. It does happen. With OPINION. I can say Star Trek is the best show ever, and I can show you Star Trek, but I can't prove that Star Trek is the best show. You have to prove it to yourself. So it seems that it only works that way with OPINION, not evidence.

And in most people's OPINION the Covid vaccines are safe and effective and that the have to have them. They do not even look at all the evidence, they just believe what other people say. If they looked they might find something they don't want to see.

If something is "checkable," you can check to make sure that what it says is correct.

Why isn't that good enough?

If something is "testable," you can test to make sure that what it says is correct.

How do you test historical facts that surround a religion? How do you test c-scriptures?

So, you don't KNOW, you are just ASSUMING that there are records. You don't actually have any idea, do you?

I never said I did and it is no concern of mine since Christianity is not my religion. I don't care what happened 2000 years ago, I live in the present.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ah yes, that arrogant idea that so many religious people have that their beliefs can't possibly be wrong.

There is nothing arrogant about faith. Look up the word arrogant.

We look at multiple sources and see if they say the same thing. We have lots of evidence for Caesar, for instance. Such as these coins made to commemorate his victories in Gaul.

How about the fact that we have commentaries of war that he actually wrote? You can read an English translation of Commentarii de Bello Gallico at Project Gutenberg. We also have accounts written by Cicero, a person who not only lived at the same time as Caesar, but also spoke highly of Caesar, saying he was a skilled orator and prose author.

We also know that Sallust, a Roman historian and politician, who was a contemporary and supporter of Caesar, wrote quite a bit about Caesar.c

There is not that much documented evidence of more recent history since it is yet to be written. As soon as historians start to believe the Baha'i Faith is worthy of serious study there will be more written.
There are not multiple sources about Baha'i history although there is more than one source.

You are using your desired conclusion as a premise in order to reach your desired conclusion.

You have no idea what my desired conclusion is.

There's that arrogant "My beliefs can't possibly be wrong" attitude again.

Even if I do believe my beliefs cannot possibly be wrong that is not arrogance.

arrogant: having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=arrogant+means

It is faith, and I did not acquire this kind of faith overnight, I had to work hard for it, day and night. Those who make an effort for God are guided by God.

:“Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.””Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267

Stop avoiding the question. Could your capacity for recognizing the evidence be flawed?

Capacity cannot be flawed although it can be lacking. Some people have more capacity than other people. Some people have more capacity on certain areas and not others.

What does capacity mean?
: the ability to hold or contain people or things. : the largest amount or number that can be held or contained. : the ability to do something : a mental, emotional, or physical ability.Aug 31, 2021

Definition of capacity - Merriam-Webster

 

[samtonga43]

Even if I do believe my beliefs cannot possibly be wrong that is not arrogance.

LOL! Of course it is. What's more, it is arrogance combined with ignorance. Someone who believes that their beliefs cannot possibly be wrong has an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.

 

[Subduction Zone]

LOL! Of course it is. What's more, it is arrogance combined with ignorance. Someone who believes that their beliefs cannot possibly be wrong has an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.

Amazing, I agree, whether Baha'i, Christian, or atheist one has to be willing to admit that one may be wrong.

 

[Tiberius]

What I meant was that I could not choose to disbelieve if I still believe. I would need a reason to relinquish my belief.

I would have to lose my faith in order to become a nonbeliever. I guess that was what happened to you some time ago, if you ever believed at all.

So where exactly does choice come into it?

 

[Tiberius]

It does happen with other kinds of evidence. For example, the so-called experts say the Covid vaccines are 'safe and effective' but I am not going to believe that just because 'they' say so. I would have to prove it to myself by looking at all of the evidence, not just the biased evidence, and I have yet to do so because I have no need and no plans to take it.

So you are looking at everything that everyone has to say, not just the experts, but also Johnny Crackpot who thinks the vaccine is going to implant 5G treacking chips and everything in between. And you're going to end up having your viewpoint skewed away from the objectively true towards to conspiracy theorist's viewpoint because of your refusal to reject the claims that are unsupported.

And in most people's OPINION the Covid vaccines are safe and effective and that the have to have them. They do not even look at all the evidence, they just believe what other people say. If they looked they might find something they don't want to see.

You don't think that the claims have different levels of validity based on who makes them? Claim made by scientist who has been studying virology and the immune system for years = highly valid. Claim made by some who's been reading conspiracy websites = Not valid at all.

Why isn't that good enough?

You miss the point. Something being checkable and something being testable is the same thing.

How do you test historical facts that surround a religion? How do you test c-scriptures?

If something is historical fact, it can be tested. Please read again my post 2213.

You can't test religious claims, which is exactly whyI have been saying that religious claims are not a valid source to base a worldview on.

I never said I did and it is no concern of mine since Christianity is not my religion. I don't care what happened 2000 years ago, I live in the present.

When your religion claims Christianity proves it is true, it is very much important that your claims about it are correct.

 

[Tiberius]

There is nothing arrogant about faith. Look up the word arrogant.

There's a reason it's called a "holier than thou" attitude. Because it's arrogant.

There is not that much documented evidence of more recent history since it is yet to be written. As soon as historians start to believe the Baha'i Faith is worthy of serious study there will be more written.
There are not multiple sources about Baha'i history although there is more than one source.

You'll need to do better than just making excuses like, "Oh, it will happen soon, once everyone realises that we're right."

You have no idea what my desired conclusion is.

Your conclusion is that there are mutliple truths revealed by multiple messengers.

Even if I do believe my beliefs cannot possibly be wrong that is not arrogance.

You seriously expect me to believe that saying, "My beliefs can't possibly be wrong" isn't arrogant?

arrogant:

having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=arrogant+means

An exaggerated sense of one's own abilities...

You mean like believing that you have the ability to be completely correct regarding your religious beliefs?

Go on, tell me again that's NOT arrogance.

Capacity cannot be flawed although it can be lacking. Some people have more capacity than other people. Some people have more capacity on certain areas and not others.

What does capacity mean?
: the ability to hold or contain people or things. : the largest amount or number that can be held or contained. : the ability to do something : a mental, emotional, or physical ability.Aug 31, 2021

Definition of capacity - Merriam-Webster

Once again you resort to quibbling over wordplay to avoid actually addressing the question.

 

[CG Didymus]

We all fight the same battles in our own frames of references CG.

You are not alone, finding Faith does not mean the battle is over as Truth is eternally bigger than all our minds combined. All that is possible for us in this matrix is born out of the Human Spirit and our combined ability to use the Spirit of Faith to embrace the Holy Spirit as one people on one planet.

While we remain divided truth likewise is thus divided.

Regards Tony

The point was, that although each religion said and thought they have "The Truth", they didn't. Even with the Baha'i Faith most people have to let go of their old beliefs to fully take in the Baha'i beliefs. So a person that believed in many Gods, or a three in one God, or a Satan would stop believing those "Truths" of their old religion and accept what the Baha'i Faith teaches. However, some people will keep believing that their religious beliefs are true and it is the Baha'i Faith that is the one that is false. And, for the Baha'is, that word "false" becomes important, because Baha'is say that all the major religions are true, yet they have false beliefs mixed in. So that has to be sorted out.

But what I was alluding to was that even religions with beliefs and doctrines that Baha'is say are false, like believing in many Gods or a dying and rising God/man, those religions still work for those that believe them... as if what they believe is really true.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, they seem to think that cherry-picking a couple of Bible verses here and there is a good way to force the B.man into prophecy. "Who will unseal this book?" Why, the B.Man of course!

What's weird is that I was accusing Christians, specifically Matthew and Luke, for cherry-picking Isaiah 7:14 about the virgin giving birth to a son and making it a prophecy about Jesus. And they supported it! Yet, they don't support the resurrection. Both to me are things that scientifically are not possible. And that is their reasoning to reject the resurrection as being a literal event. But they do accept an unfertilized egg grew into a man?

Now if we are talking about an all powerful God that created everything out of nothing... then both are possible. So why reject the one and accept the other? Unless, they don't want a living Jesus? Except, they are okay if his spirit is still alive and that is what rose again. But then, they believe everybody's spirit lives on, so how and why would Jesus' spirit need to be resurrected? It doesn't die. Anyway, they put themselves into these endless debates/arguments by saying things that do contradict the other religions. Then they have to "prove", show "evidence", give an explanation on how and why they are right.

 

[CG Didymus]

For me, I see it allows a women to serve the cause unhindered in the areas that are most in need.

I mentioned this a long time ago. It's only five years. How is that a problem? Raising kids maybe? What if they have already raised their kids? Is it a problem in the different government jobs that do allow women? Also, you have nine men... Do they have a staff that works with them during those five years? Are women allowed on their staffs? All other top positions in the Baha'i Faith do allow women, those jobs don't "hinder" them? No, they probably wanted the job and love serving the Faith. So "equality" only goes so far and then stops? There are important differences between men and women that make women unsuited to serve at the highest level? And their strengths are better suited doing other jobs?

 

[CG Didymus]

Indeed it is in faith of the Holy Spirit that we must be born.

Now we can also choose to be raised again in Christ to the acceptance of the Father.

Regards Tony

How does the Baha'i Faith define the "Holy Spirit"? I know it is not how trinitarian Christians define it. To them, the Holy Spirit is God.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The point was, that although each religion said and thought they has "The Truth", they didn't. Even with the Baha'i Faith most people have to let go of their old beliefs to fully take in the Baha'i beliefs. So a person that believed in many Gods, or a three in one God, or a Satan would stop believing those "Truths" of their old religion and accept what the Baha'i Faith teaches. However, some people will keep believing that their religious beliefs are true and it is the Baha'i Faith that is the one that is false. And, for the Baha'is, that word "false" becomes important, because Baha'is say that all the major religions are true, yet they have false beliefs mixed in. So that has to be sorted out.

All I could offer is that all around the world people of all Faiths have embraced what Baha'u'llah offered. As such they would be the best people to ask those questions of.

Personally I can see there are frames of references that reconcile many of the doctrinal differences, like the many Gods to One God, Baha’u’llah has given the capacity to see that Oneness. Also doctrines such as the Trinity can be see in different light, one does not throw it away, it takes on a new meaning.

After all it was Jesus that said I make all things new, so why do we fear looking at the same thing with new eyes? The scriptures tells us we will need new eyes and new ears.

But what I was alluding to was that even religions with beliefs and doctrines that Baha'is say are false, like believing in many Gods or a dying and rising God/man, those religions still work for those that believe them... as if what they believe is really true.

That is Faith CG, I do not see any faith given by God that has been sent offering we do not need to change, in fact it is the opposite, God sends a Messenger when we are in urgent need of change.

Why do we choose to fight that change may be the better question.

You hit the nail on the head asking why change if it is working for them. That is what Faith is also about, it is bigger than self, bigger then family, bigger than community and it is bigger than nations. The good of the entire human family has to now be considered. The world has shrunk and no one can go it alone anymore.

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

What's weird is that I was accusing Christians, specifically Matthew and Luke, for cherry-picking Isaiah 7:14 about the virgin giving birth to a son and making it a prophecy about Jesus. And they supported it! Yet, they don't support the resurrection. Both to me are things that scientifically are not possible. And that is their reasoning to reject the resurrection as being a literal event. But they do accept an unfertilized egg grew into a man?

Now if we are talking about an all powerful God that created everything out of nothing... then both are possible. So why reject the one and accept the other? Unless, they don't want a living Jesus? Except, they are okay if his spirit is still alive and that is what rose again. But then, they believe everybody's spirit lives on, so how and why would Jesus' spirit need to be resurrected? It doesn't die. Anyway, they put themselves into these endless debates/arguments by saying things that do contradict the other religions. Then they have to "prove", show "evidence", give an explanation on how and why they are right.

Isaiah 7:14 does not prophecy a virgin birth. That is a mistranslation in the Septuagint. Also it it cherry picked because it is taken out of context. In context it is not even a prophecy, but a declaration of an event taking place at that time. Many of the so called prophecies about Jesus are merely quote mines by authors attempting to give the Jesus story validity.

 

[CG Didymus]

There are not multiple truths about the universe but there are multiple religions that were revealed by Messengers in different ages that are all true.

You are using your desired conclusion as a premise in order to reach your desired conclusion.

Yes, the desired conclusion is that the Baha'i Faith is the truth. All the religions had different things they called "true". Just to take one "truth" about the universe. God created it in six days less than 10,000 years ago. Baha'is don't believe that is true. But, since it is in the Bible, it can't be "false", so it must be allegorically true, not literally true. Which, to me, is a nice way of saying it's a made up fictional story that is not based on anything true.

I know what is false because I know what is true. Whatever contradicts true is false.

There's that arrogant "My beliefs can't possibly be wrong" attitude again.

Yes, as if all Baha'is believe all the same things as true. I doubt they do. But what do they do when something they believe is true is found to contradict what the Baha'i Faith teaches as true? A true believer in the Baha'i Faith would have to stop thinking what they used to believe is the truth and recognize what the Baha'i Faith says is true.

But, I'm sure once in awhile, some Baha'is don't accept something that is taught by the Baha'i Faith. Then what? Of course if some other Baha'is find out about it, they would reprove them, and tell them that "no" the Baha'i Faith can never be wrong about anything. Just shut your eyes and mind and keep believing. But no, that's not how a Baha'i thinks, everyone else are the ones closing their minds and eyes to the truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

one has to be willing to admit that one may be wrong.

This has nothing to do with admitting I might be wrong, it has to do with certitude of my beliefs.
Why should I be "willing" to admit my beliefs might not be true to other people?

The one hundred million dollar question is why it bothers other people so much that I believe with certainty. This is not about ME being right, it is about what I believe God has granted to me and to other Baha'is.

When people call me arrogant they are the ones who are arrogant because they insist they know something about me they could not possibly ever know. Thus they have an exaggerated sense of their own abilities.

arrogant:
having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=arrogant+means

My certitude is not anything you or @samtonga43 could ever understand because that certitude comes from God.

“Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation. The memory of this night will never be forgotten. May it never be effaced by the passage of time, and may its mention linger for ever on the lips of men.”

(Baha'u'llah, quoted by Shoghi Effendi in The Dawn-Breakers, p. 586)

The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I mentioned this a long time ago. It's only five years. How is that a problem? Raising kids maybe? What if they have already raised their kids? Is it a problem in the different government jobs that do allow women? Also, you have nine men... Do they have a staff that works with them during those five years? Are women allowed on their staffs? All other top positions in the Baha'i Faith do allow women, those jobs don't "hinder" them? No, they probably wanted the job and love serving the Faith. So "equality" only goes so far and then stops? There are important differences between men and women that make women unsuited to serve at the highest level? And their strengths are better suited doing other jobs?

All questions you do not have to worry about CG, they are questions of Faith. It has been offerd to Baha'i that why the Universal House of Justice is only men will be made clear in the future.

Also the structure of the Administrative order now is not what it will be in the future. Local and National Spiritual Assemblies will becone House of Justice, to which women can and will be elected.

So, until that time, it can only be speculation.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

LOL! Of course it is. What's more, it is arrogance combined with ignorance. Someone who believes that their beliefs cannot possibly be wrong has an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.

My certitude of my beliefs has nothing to do with me, it comes from God.

When people call me arrogant they are the ones who are arrogant because they insist they know something about me they could not possibly ever know. Thus they have an exaggerated sense of their own abilities.

arrogant
having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=arrogant+means

And anyone who thinks that know what another person better than they know themselves is the one who is arrogant.

Moreover, Jesus said not to judge other people and you do it constantly.

Matthew 7:1-5 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.” The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

 

[CG Didymus]

There are lots of prolific writers.

I'm not disputing that he was prolific. I am disputing the argument that Mr B being prolific is evidence that he was a messenger from God.

Well that's easy to solve. We can determine at what point a person is so prolific that they must be from God. Then, anyone that can write that fast will be made into a manifestation of God... a virtual God amongst men... a giant amidst us mere mortals and all that good stuff.

But really, he was a nice guy and unjustly did some time. Writing and dictating fast kind of shows that somebody upstairs must have been helping him. And it must have been God... 'Cause who else but God would have somebody write about how great and magnificent he was?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, the desired conclusion is that the Baha'i Faith is the truth.

You do not know what I desire. You only know what you desire.
I do not desire that the Baha'i Faith is true, I believe it is true. What I desire is to be free from the Baha'i Faith and God and this forum so I could have a life. But God desires something else for me so I am still here for now, but only because I consider it my duty to God. I have no desire to be here.