Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[TransmutingSoul]

But they were only one of them. I felt the same power and love in each. And each religious belief was different. What I concluded was that it didn't matter what I believed as long as I believed it. So was what I was feeling real? How could it be when each religion contradicted each other? Now, for some reason, I don't trust any religion. But I understand why believers in any one of them is so passionate about their religion and believes it is true. And, I'd imagine you or people you know have experienced this sort of thing with religions.

We all fight the same battles in our own frames of references CG.

You are not alone, finding Faith does not mean the battle is over as Truth is eternally bigger than all our minds combined. All that is possible for us in this matrix is born out of the Human Spirit and our combined ability to use the Spirit of Faith to embrace the Holy Spirit as one people on one planet.

While we remain divided truth likewise is thus divided.

Regards Tony

 

[samtonga43]

No, it is objective.

You are wrong, Tb. I would advise you to take some time out and learn about epistemology. Here is a good site:
Epistemology (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
At the very least you would learn about the differences between 'objective' and 'subjective'.
Here is another favorite place of mine that you may find useful:
Faith Proof and Evidence - does a fact terminate a belief

 

[samtonga43]

I believe I have heard it from churches as well. It is usually based upon a verse in Revelations that only refers to that book.

Correct. Do Bahais believe that the whole Bible is sealed? Really?

 

[samtonga43]

A good thought from my Baha'i perspective is that the Universal House of Justice is a body of elected representatives, as there are no leaders in the Baha'i Faith.
...as an elected body, they are our guides.
Regards Tony

How many elected representatives are there, Tony? And what is the ratio of women to men?

 

[samtonga43]

I think it is important as a Baha'i beliefs, because then they can more easily give a reason why Christian doctrines and beliefs are wrong, and why it took Baha'u'llah to "unseal" the book and give a "true" interpretation of the Bible. Which of course makes him the return of Christ.

Yes, they seem to think that cherry-picking a couple of Bible verses here and there is a good way to force the B.man into prophecy. "Who will unseal this book?" Why, the B.Man of course!

 

[samtonga43]

Well we are made new only to the extent we submit to God doeth as God Willeth.

I see RF has shown me a different path needed to walk. Thus everyday transmutation of our soul is possible, it never ends in this life, as progress is always a forward motion and all the rest is decay setting in.

I see the explanations are more then reasonable. The highest aspiration of any person can be found in what the Message Contains, but that is subject to relative truth.

What changes are we willing to make, especially if we see we have hold of absolute truth? That has been the best thing for me, finding out on RF that truth is relative and no human with faith or scientist with knowledge can know what is absolute truth.

That opens a vision as how to obtain a unity in diversity, a vision many of us have lacked in the past, especially in the 80's and 90's when what is meant by entry in troops, was misunderstood as the need for conversion.

I see Abdu'lbaha did not teach in any way aimed at conversion of faith, but of the abitily to change our inner lives.

Regards Tony

 

[samtonga43]

Well we are made new only to the extent we submit to God doeth as God Willeth.

I see RF has shown me a different path needed to walk. Thus everyday transmutation of our soul is possible, it never ends in this life, as progress is always a forward motion and all the rest is decay setting in.

I see the explanations are more then reasonable. The highest aspiration of any person can be found in what the Message Contains, but that is subject to relative truth.

What changes are we willing to make, especially if we see we have hold of absolute truth? That has been the best thing for me, finding out on RF that truth is relative and no human with faith or scientist with knowledge can know what is absolute truth.

That opens a vision as how to obtain a unity in diversity, a vision many of us have lacked in the past, especially in the 80's and 90's when what is meant by entry in troops, was misunderstood as the need for conversion.

I see Abdu'lbaha did not teach in any way aimed at conversion of faith, but of the abitily to change our inner lives.
Regards Tony

I was an atheist. It was the Holy Spirit who changed my life
Jesus said:
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day".
John 6:44

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How many elected representatives are there, Tony? And what is the ratio of women to men?

At this time there is 9 elected, this number from memory is not set in stone. As most would now know, both women and men get to elect the Universal House of Justice, but only men can serve on the Universal House of Justice.

It is a test for many that a Faith that teaches equality of men and women has such a law, to which is offered that it will become obvious as to why in the future.

For me, I see it allows a women to serve the cause unhindered in the areas that are most in need.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I was an atheist. It was the Holy Spirit who changed my life
Jesus said:
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day".
John 6:44

Indeed it is in faith of the Holy Spirit that we must be born.

Now we can also choose to be raised again in Christ to the acceptance of the Father.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, they seem to think that cherry-picking a couple of Bible verses here and there is a good way to force the B.man into prophecy. "Who will unseal this book?" Why, the B.Man of course!

If as you say, it is the Holy Spirit that makes us new, then with it, we can discern what is from God and what is from our own selves.

If we use the Holy Spirit as it was not intended, then we only reflect ourselves and not God.

Regards Tony

 

[Tiberius]

What were those exceptions?

You said you couldn't choose to disbelieve because you still believed, for example (which makes about as much sense as saying you can't choose to stand up because you're still sitting down...)

 

[Tiberius]

I can show it but I can't prove it to anyone else. They have to prove it to themselves.

Funny how that never happens with any other kind of evidence except for religious "evidence", isn't it?

Oh, wait. It does happen. With OPINION. I can say Star Trek is the best show ever, and I can show you Star Trek, but I can't prove that Star Trek is the best show. You have to prove it to yourself. So it seems that it only works that way with OPINION, not evidence.

No, it is research it by looking at the evidence and determine if it is worthy of belief.

I've seen anti-vaxxers and flat-earthers use the exact same thing to justify that them looking at YouTube videos that say what they want to hear is also "research."

Checking something out is not the same as testing it. Checking something out is looking at it to determine if you think it is true. I don't know what you mean by testing.

If something is "checkable," you can check to make sure that what it says is correct.

If something is "testable," you can test to make sure that what it says is correct.

When I said "there must be" I meant there probably are some records because otherwise most scholars would not believe it, since scholars do research and look at records.

So, you don't KNOW, you are just ASSUMING that there are records. You don't actually have any idea, do you?

That is not a claim.

Yes it is. It's a claim based on an assumption, which makes it pretty much worthless. Anyone can assume whatever they want and then make a claim about it.

 

[Tiberius]

You might be but I am not worried about that.

Ah yes, that arrogant idea that so many religious people have that their beliefs can't possibly be wrong.

No, we do not have to test things to know if they are facts. How do you think that historical facts can be tested?
Measurement, analysis, and observation is for science, not for religion.

We look at multiple sources and see if they say the same thing. We have lots of evidence for Caesar, for instance. Such as these coins made to commemorate his victories in Gaul.

How about the fact that we have commentaries of war that he actually wrote? You can read an English translation of Commentarii de Bello Gallico at Project Gutenberg. We also have accounts written by Cicero, a person who not only lived at the same time as Caesar, but also spoke highly of Caesar, saying he was a skilled orator and prose author.

We also know that Sallust, a Roman historian and politician, who was a contemporary and supporter of Caesar, wrote quite a bit about Caesar.

There are not multiple truths about the universe but there are multiple religions that were revealed by Messengers in different ages that are all true.

You are using your desired conclusion as a premise in order to reach your desired conclusion.

I know what is false because I know what is true. Whatever contradicts true is false.

There's that arrogant "My beliefs can't possibly be wrong" attitude again.

You have no way of knowing what my capacity is, only God knows that.

Stop avoiding the question. Could your capacity for recognizing the evidence be flawed?

 

[Tiberius]

What about him being a very fast writer don't you understand? How objective do you need?

There are lots of prolific writers.

I'm not disputing that he was prolific. I am disputing the argument that Mr B being prolific is evidence that he was a messenger from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

But it is the business of Baha'i leadership to make sure people calling themselves Baha'is aren't doing things that hurt or embarrass the Faith. Then, if someone in leadership does something inappropriate, it is the business of others in leadership to take action. And about the present? How extreme do you take it? Do you have food in the frig? Why? That's for another day?

The spiritual assemblies only get involved if someone brings disrepute to the Faith in pubic. They don't get involved in people's private lives.

I always have extra food because I only go shopping twice a week. I never plan ahead. i only know if I have things to do that are time sensitive, like appointments. I never planned for retirement but I might be forced to retire next month. I have done all I can do to prevent it but if it happens I will deal with it and go on to a new chapter of my life. It is my faith that allows me not to be totally anxious and depressed over this. This whole country is collapsing before our very eyes and Biden is trying to control everything like a dictator. It is too sickening to watch the news anymore, but at least I am aware of what is happening. This old world order is being rolled up and a new one will be spread out in its stead.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, you're loyal and you respect and believe in what these "other" people say.

These are not 'other' people. They were given authority by virtue of the Covenant of Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

And isn't that him saying so? And if it's true, there's nothing wrong with him saying so. But, can we trust in what he says and writes is the truth? Maybe, some of us here are checking, and checking....

I had to check and check before I was willing to believe, but once I had checked I trusted that whatever Baha'u'llah wrote was the truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

So the spiritual and the social teachings change with each new messenger? That's not what I was told.

The spiritual teachings do not change but the social teachings and laws change.

The first part of the Religion of God which refers to spiritual truth is the same in every religion. The second part of the Religion of God which refers to material things is different in each religion. It changes in each prophetic cycle to accommodate the needs of the times.

In the following passage, the Law of God refers to the divinely revealed religion of God. The spiritual message (spiritual virtues and divine qualities) are the same in all the great world religions:

“the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......

These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.

The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 47-48

 

[Trailblazer]

So you "never said the whole Bible was sealed"? Yet, you believe Baha'u'llah "unsealed" the Bible?

I think you can add two and two and do the math.

1. Jesus said:

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

2. Baha'u'llah said:

“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85

“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19

Funny how each new religion seems to think that the previous ones didn't understand their own Scriptures.

That's true and usually the one religion comes after has a better understanding of the one that came before, given religion progresses over time. For example, the Jews still don't recognize Jesus so Christians know something really major that Jews don't know.

 

[Trailblazer]

If I were debating with born again Christians I'd expect them to be able to explain why they believe the Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God when it was written by fallible men? And they only have to tie in one religion and there's problems.

By all rights, Baha'is only have to explain one religion, the Baha'i Faith. You expect us to explain all the religions of the past and that is just not fair or reasonable. As I see it you need to focus on the present if they are ever going to accomplish anything, not live in the past or the future. The past is gone and the future is not here yet. The old religions will never FIT into the Baha'i Faith because it is an entirely new religion for a brand new age.

One cannot make a newer religion like the Baha’i Faith *fit* into the same mold as the older religions such as Judaism or Christianity because Baha'i is a much more expansive revelation and has many more components that the older religions did not have; so Baha’i cannot be made to fit into the Bible mold.

Luke 5:37-38 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.”

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

I also find this verse very significant:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Jesus was right, as that is what actually happens... Christians or Jews or any older religious believers who have drunk the old wine do not desire the new Baha’i wine; they say the old is better. That is why we do not see a massive increase in Baha’is.