Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

The Bahai interpretation is biased because it is based upon what Bahais want to be true, that MrB was a manifestation of God.

This is not about Baha'u'llah, it is about the birth of Jesus and whether He was born of a virgin. Why are you compelled to make everything about Baha'u'llah when that is not the subject of the conversation?

If you want to talk about the interpretation of the prophecies I could just as well say that the Christian interpretation is about what Christians want to be true.

This is a logical fallacy --Bandwagon

That fallacy does not apply because I did not say it is true ONLY because many people believe it is true. It is true for other reasons. If Jews has the 'one true religion' as they believe they do that would mean that all the other religions in the world are false and that makes no logical sense because no 'loving' God would single out that small handful of people to be 'chosen'

I guess your only purpose here is to take pot shots at me every chance you get, not to have a fruitful discussion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, I've read what Abdul Baha' said about the resurrection.

Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.​

Then there is the "Three Woes"...

The first woe is the appearance of the Prophet, Muḥammad, the son of ‘Abdu’lláh—peace be upon Him! The second woe is that of the Báb—to Him be glory and praise! The third woe is the great day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts and the radiance of the Beauty of the Promised One. The explanation of this subject, woe, is mentioned in the thirtieth chapter of Ezekiel, where it is said: “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near.”​

Yes, we've been over it many times and it still doesn't make sense. You like it. You believe it, fine. Again, I think the resurrection story is told and meant to be believed as an actual event. Baha'is take it as an allegorical story. I don't think it is. And, if it didn't really happen, then I wouldn't call it an "allegorical" story, I'd call it a made up, fictional lie.

And the Three Woes? There's more "Woes" in the Book of Revelation and Baha'is don't make them into "manifestations" The Woes seem to be bad things, judgements coming to the evil people on Earth, those that didn't believe in God's Son, Jesus. The things that happen during each Woe don't match very well with Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. From Revelation 8:13...

13 As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!”​

All the trumpet blasts had been bad things, so this eagle says, "“Woe! Woe! Woe!" because of the trumpet blasts. So what were those trumpet blasts? Bad stuff goin' down. Anyway, religions got to do things to get people to believe. "Proving" and "showing" how your guy was prophesied about and he fulfilled those prophecies is part of it. But just like other religions, Baha'is make things prophecies that don't sound like they were meant to be prophecies... but they find a way to make them work.

It all ties into the Oneness of God and the best advice the Bible could ever give us when we consider all these topics CG.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it.

9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

So how I have reconciled past scriptures is not by the reading of them, but finding the gem of meanings from Baha'u'llah and then seeing them in those scriptures.

As such, I am unable to interpret the whole Bible for you, I can only offer what makes sense to me, thus I understand yoy have issues if you require a passage by passage explanation, that has not been provided CG, we are told use the keys and work out the rest using one's own spiritual capacity.

There are people that this subject is thier passion and have given on the net many explanations, that give Avery expanded view, but it can only be a view, as God has not provided a full explanation, that we are aware of.

In saying that Baha'u'llah and Baha'u'llah offered that if we had the capacity, the Messages do contain the entire Truth.

Regards Tony

 

[Tiberius]

That's right. My husband never sees anybody but me. I only see people twice a week when I go to the grocery store at closing time when there are all of three people in the store with masks on and I also have a mask on. I am not going to worry that I might get Covid from that. That would be irrational. There is a better chance I might get in a car wreck on the way to the store.

It's unlikely, yes, but not impossible.

I also note you ignored completely much of what I said in my post.

No, I do not read opinions, I read facts about the Baha'i Faith and the Writings of the Baha'i Faith and then I decided if they are worthy of belief.

You decide... with your fallible Human mind...

There is no way to make sure one is right except through the bounty of the Holy Spirit.

That's just not true.

"There are only four accepted methods of comprehension—that is to say, the realities of things are understood by these four methods.

The first method is by the senses—that is to say, all that the eye, the ear, the taste, the smell, the touch perceive is understood by this method. Today this method is considered the most perfect by all the European philosophers: they say that the principal method of gaining knowledge is through the senses; they consider it supreme, although it is imperfect, for it commits errors. For example, the greatest of the senses is the power of sight. The sight sees the mirage as water, and it sees images reflected in mirrors as real and existent; large bodies which are distant appear to be small, and a whirling point appears as a circle. The sight believes the earth to be motionless and sees the sun in motion, and in many similar cases it makes mistakes. Therefore, we cannot trust it.

The second is the method of reason, which was that of the ancient philosophers, the pillars of wisdom; this is the method of the understanding. They proved things by reason and held firmly to logical proofs; all their arguments are arguments of reason. Notwithstanding this, they differed greatly, and their opinions were contradictory. They even changed their views—that is to say, during twenty years they would prove the existence of a thing by logical arguments, and afterward they would deny it by logical arguments—so much so that Plato at first logically proved the immobility of the earth and the movement of the sun; later by logical arguments he proved that the sun was the stationary center, and that the earth was moving. Afterward the Ptolemaic theory was spread abroad, and the idea of Plato was entirely forgotten, until at last a new observer again called it to life. Thus all the mathematicians disagreed, although they relied upon arguments of reason. In the same way, by logical arguments, they would prove a problem at a certain time, then afterward by arguments of the same nature they would deny it. So one of the philosophers would firmly uphold a theory for a time with strong arguments and proofs to support it, which afterward he would retract and contradict by arguments of reason. Therefore, it is evident that the method of reason is not perfect, for the differences of the ancient philosophers, the want of stability and the variations of their opinions, prove this. For if it were perfect, all ought to be united in their ideas and agreed in their opinions.

The third method of understanding is by tradition—that is, through the text of the Holy Scriptures—for people say, “In the Old and New Testaments, God spoke thus.” This method equally is not perfect, because the traditions are understood by the reason. As the reason itself is liable to err, how can it be said that in interpreting the meaning of the traditions it will not err, for it is possible for it to make mistakes, and certainty cannot be attained. This is the method of the religious leaders; whatever they understand and comprehend from the text of the books is that which their reason understands from the text, and not necessarily the real truth; for the reason is like a balance, and the meanings contained in the text of the Holy Books are like the thing which is weighed. If the balance is untrue, how can the weight be ascertained?

Know then: that which is in the hands of people, that which they believe, is liable to error. For, in proving or disproving a thing, if a proof is brought forward which is taken from the evidence of our senses, this method, as has become evident, is not perfect; if the proofs are intellectual, the same is true; or if they are traditional, such proofs also are not perfect. Therefore, there is no standard in the hands of people upon which we can rely.

But the bounty of the Holy Spirit gives the true method of comprehension which is infallible and indubitable. This is through the help of the Holy Spirit which comes to man, and this is the condition in which certainty can alone be attained."
Some Answered Questions, pp. 297-299

Yeah, just making the claim that the Holy Spirit is the only way to get true understanding doesn't make it so. You'll need to do more than make empty claims.

That's true, what is real for one person is real for all people, even if they don't believe it, but there is no way to test a religious belief. Say it once more and I won't respond again.

So why do you cling to it when we have testable methods? Especially when those methods have a proven track record.

I have verified that my religious beliefs are true, the only way they can be verified.

No you haven't.

 

[Tiberius]

You finally stepped over the line so I am finally done with this conversation. I do not allow people to tell me what my attitude is or what my desires are. I don't think I am better than anyone else; in fact I feel exactly the opposite way about myself.

It does not make any difference what I say about myself because you do not believe me anyway.
You have already decided you know all about me but you don't know me from Adam.

I thought you were different from some atheists on this forum but that just goes to show that I can be wrong.

This thread has become so toxic I might just leave altogether. Some people think they can say whatever they want to and they don't care about anything but being right. There is only one reason why people need to criticize other people. They need the other person to be wrong so that they can continue to 'believe' that they are right.

Sorry, but if people cannot be courteous I am not going to post to them anymore. Insulting other people and speaking for their motives and contradicting them is rude.

“O people of God! I admonish you to observe courtesy, for above all else it is the prince of virtues. Well is it with him who is illumined with the light of courtesy and is attired with the vesture of uprightness. Whoso is endued with courtesy hath indeed attained a sublime station. It is hoped that this Wronged One and everyone else may be enabled to acquire it, hold fast unto it, observe it, and fix our gaze upon it. This is a binding command which hath streamed forth from the Pen of the Most Great Name.”

(Baha’u’llah, Tablet of the World, p. 88.)

“O ye Cohorts of God! Beware lest ye offend the feelings of anyone, or sadden the heart of any person, or move the tongue in reproach of and finding fault with anybody, whether he is friend or stranger, believer or enemy.”
Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas, p. 45

Beware! Beware! Lest ye offend any heart!
Beware! Beware! Lest ye hurt any soul!
Beware! Beware! Lest ye deal unkindly toward any person!
Beware! Beware! Lest ye be the cause of hopelessness to any creature!

Should one become the cause of grief to any one heart, or of despondency to any one soul, it were better to hide oneself in the lowest depths of the earth than to walk upon the earth.

(Abdu’l-Baha, Letter to the Baha’is of America)

Sorry to hear that you can't take having your numerous and repeated logical fallacies pointed out.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, but I had to have faith that 'God could exist' before I could believe that God exists.

Ancient people had their Gods. Some of which most all of us would agree that they were not real. Yet, everybody in that culture had to believe in those Gods and obey the rules. Why don't we believe in those Gods now? It's because it is very apparent that these Gods are not real but made up by the people. But still, some people believe in some sort of God. If a born again Christian told you about God, would you believe them? Probably not. Because some of the things that person says about God don't sound right. Yet, when you read or hear someone talking about what the Baha'is believe about God you have "faith" that this God is real? Or, the things Baha'is teach about God sound real and you decide to believe those things are true? I think there is a slight difference.

That is true in all Faiths. Submission to the law is a personal choice, Judaism and Isalm were excellent examples of submission in Faith to the given law.

There has been a time, and in some cases it still happens, where a person better believe or else. If given a choice whether to follow the laws of God? Then are you sure they really came from God? God allows people the option to obey the laws or not? So it's more like a suggestion and not a you must obey this kind of law?

 

[CG Didymus]

Strict observance is the ideal and it is possible to meet that ideal if one really understands why it is important.
But if they slip up it is not the end of the world, it is the intent and effort put forth that matter. Once a long time ago a Hand of the Cause told my husband that sincerity and effort are all that is expected of us.

Strict observance might be okay for Baha'is to do, but what about some of the other religions and especially religious cults and extremist sects within a religion? That's the last thing we need is for them to "strictly" obey what they think "God" is telling them.

 

[CG Didymus]

I fully agree that the search for truth requires impartial, dispassionate evaluation. One cannot arrive at truth unless one is willing and able to go where the evidence leads, but if nobody wants to look at the evidence they can never go where it leads.

That is what I was hoping for when you read Isaiah chapter 7. Just like I'm when some Baha'is tell me to read some Baha'is book, they think I will see the truth in it.

As I always say, if after 51 years I am still questioning whether Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be I would have to be pretty slow on the uptake. If I never believed in Him at all, which is your position, that would be different, but once I chose to believe why should I continue questioning my belief? Would I get married and then keep questioning whether I should have gotten married 51 years later? If I still questioned that maybe I should get a divorce.

That's a real good example. How many people get married, then find out that the person isn't what they thought they were. There are enough things about Christianity and the Baha'i Faith to not fully believe. So it makes me wonder, why do other say they fully believe? Do they really? Or, just try and keep the things they have a problem believing in the back of their mind, hidden away?

To use Christianity for an example, how many born again Christians really believe the literal creation story? And I know lots of people joined the Baha'i Faith with very little knowledge about it. Oneness of God, oneness of religion, and oneness of humanity and they said, "That sound great. How do I join?" Then, since some dropped out, what did they find out later that got them to leave?

 

[CG Didymus]

The Holy Spirit was sent at Pentecost.

Acts 2 King James Version (KJV)

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

And then the Holy Spirit was sent again in the last days that we are now living in. In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have (Acts 2:17-21) showing that God would once again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh:

Acts 2:17-21 was spoken by the prophet Joel, and it was a prophecy that referred to the last days, the days when Christ would return.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17-21 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

All these wonders in the heavens and signs on the earth happened before Baha’u’llah appeared, and thus He fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.

"Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel"? What is spoken of by Joel? "This" What is "this"? The people acting drunk and speaking in foreign languages? Or, what's happening now 2000 years later? I think Peter is using Joel to as a prophecy of what was happening right then at Pentecost.

But I'm sure because Joel says "in the last days" that you say that it is now and not then.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'is believe science and religion go hand and hand but we also believe that miracles are possible.

Question.—It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible.

Answer.—The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.

Some Answered Questions, p. 100

22: MIRACLES

The Jewish interpretation is biased because it is based upon what Jews want to be true, that Jesus was nobody. This is ludicrous and why only there are only 14.7 million Jews in the world and 2.5 billion Christians. The Jewish interpretation of the Old Testament is messed up because they are still waiting for the Messiah. They don't believe any of the prophecies are about the Messiah because they are still waiting for the Messiah that has already come, twice. They believe that the Messiah is coming just for them, to vindicate them and restore the Torah so they, the chosen people, can be the ones who are above all others in the world. Nothing could be more wrong. It is much more elitist than Christianity because at least Christians want everyone to be saved.

Two things... First, why not believe in the resurrection then? Who's it going to hurt to agree with the gospel story? Jesus came back to life, went to heaven, but you can still have Baha'u'llah coming as "The Christ" but with a new name.

Next, Isaiah gave a sign to King Ahaz 700 years before Jesus came. I don't see any reason from Isaiah why this would be about the coming Messiah. The boy isn't that special. He eats curds and honey and learns about right and wrong. By the time that happens, his enemies, the two kings, will be dead. Why do the two gospel writers pluck out just the one verse? And Matthew plucks out a few others that he takes out of context and makes them prophecies. It was the Jesus birth story that didn't get written until after he was gone. Plenty of time for legends and traditions to develop. And since the two gospel stories are different, I think there probably was different versions being told.

The Baha'is don't need a virgin born Jesus. Where is that TB that says the Bible are just stories. They are not, and don't have to be, historical truth. Beautiful story. Shepherds visited by angels. Magi following a moving star. But why believed it literally happened? Why not make it allegorical also? Oh, and if supernatural, unexplainable miracles do happen, then science and religion don't have to agree, because science will not believe in miracles written in a 2000 year old book that has many "miracles" that even Baha'is say didn't literally happen.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet, when you read or hear someone talking about what the Baha'is believe about God you have "faith" that this God is real? Or, the things Baha'is teach about God sound real and you decide to believe those things are true? I think there is a slight difference.

No, the things that Baha'u'llah wrote about God make sense to me so it makes it possible for me to believe that God is real.

There has been a time, and in some cases it still happens, where a person better believe or else.

Yes, when they are on their death bed, but I do not suggest you wait that long.

 

[Trailblazer]

Strict observance might be okay for Baha'is to do, but what about some of the other religions and especially religious cults and extremist sects within a religion? That's the last thing we need is for them to "strictly" obey what they think "God" is telling them.

I fully agree.

 

[CG Didymus]

The good thing is we are enabled to embrace God's Laws for the age we live.

As such some old laws are not applicable, some are, as well as some new laws. We are enabled to the extent that we submit to God doeth as God Willeth.

If we do not, then men set their own rules and goals, and havoc and injustice prevails.

Regards Tony

"God's" laws in the older religions didn't work. A girl could be stoned to death if she was found not to be a virgin when she got married? God's law or man's law? Then really, God said to stone her to death? What good did it do? Even facing a death penalty, people had sex before marriage. Baha'is have a law about not having sex before marriage. Is God going to have the people stoned to death or has he eased up on the punishment?

 

[CG Didymus]

There has been a time, and in some cases it still happens, where a person better believe or else.

Yes, when they are on their death bed, but I do not suggest you wait that long.

I was thinking more like with the Inquisition or when some religious extremists still kill people for not believing.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is what I was hoping for when you read Isaiah chapter 7. Just like I'm when some Baha'is tell me to read some Baha'is book, they think I will see the truth in it.

Why do you think you know the truth as to what Isaiah 7 means? Why does it matter to you how I interpret Isaiah 7? Is this all about Jesus being born of a virgin, and you cannot possibly believe that?

That's a real good example. How many people get married, then find out that the person isn't what they thought they were. There are enough things about Christianity and the Baha'i Faith to not fully believe. So it makes me wonder, why do other say they fully believe? Do they really? Or, just try and keep the things they have a problem believing in the back of their mind, hidden away?

I cannot speak for other Baha'is but there are no things about the Baha'i Faith that I do not fully believe. There might be a few things that I disagree with but who am I to judge? Why would I know more? I certainly do not question anything Baha'u'llah wrote even if I don't like it, but there really isn't anything I don't like if I really think about it. I don't need to drink alcohol or have sex out of wedlock and I see a good reason not to. There is one thing that Abdu'l-Baha said that I don't like so I am choosing to disagree with it and other Baha'is I know also do so. Big deal That is not a good reason not to be a Baha'i. If you wait till you agree with everything and like everything about the Baha'i Faith you will probably wait till past the deadline. I really would hate to see that happen.

So back to the marriage thing. If you get married and find out the person you married is not exactly who you thought they were should you get divorced just because there are some things that you don't like about that person or should you try to work out out? I have chosen to try to work it out and try to overlook the things I don't like. I could get divorced hoping to find someone I like better and I could end up worse off.

To use Christianity for an example, how many born again Christians really believe the literal creation story? And I know lots of people joined the Baha'i Faith with very little knowledge about it. Oneness of God, oneness of religion, and oneness of humanity and they said, "That sound great. How do I join?" Then, since some dropped out, what did they find out later that got them to leave?

Nobody knows why those Baha'is chose to leave unless they tell us their story, but why does it matter to you? I would say that maybe they did not really believe in Baha'u'llah and take that belief seriously, maybe they were just drawn to oneness of God, oneness of religion, and oneness of humanity, and then when that no longer meant that much to them they moved on. Those principles are nice, but the basis for joining the Baha'i Faith has to be that one believes in God and that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God and everything else follows from that belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel"? What is spoken of by Joel? "This" What is "this"? The people acting drunk and speaking in foreign languages? Or, what's happening now 2000 years later? I think Peter is using Joel to as a prophecy of what was happening right then at Pentecost.

But I'm sure because Joel says "in the last days" that you say that it is now and not then.

Acts 2, verses 1-15 is one section that goes together and those verses are about the Holy Spirit that was sent at Pentecost and what happened after it was sent.

Acts 2, verses 16-21 is another section that goes together. Note the semicolon after verse 16. What was spoken by Joel about the last days is in verses 17-21.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Verse 21 says "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." It is so obvious to a Baha'i that this is about the return of Christ, which was the Holy Spirit that was sent to Baha'u'llah who was the Spirit of truth. It is the Baha'is who will be saved in the last days because they are the ones who are calling on the name of the Lord, since Baha'u'llah was the Lord of Hosts.

Then we go into the next section, verses 22-47, and I am not even going to attempt to interpret those verses.

`````````````````````````````````````````
The reason that we know that Acts2:17-21 are about the return of Christ is because ther verses align perfectly with other Bible verses that re prophecies about the return of Christ:

Revelation 6:12-14 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.…

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:24-26”But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

All these wonders in the heavens and signs on the earth happened before Baha’u’llah appeared, and thus He fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.

 

[Truthseeker]

There's a section on Strikes! Who knew? Well not me. But anyway, in essence capitalism is fine, so don't go on strike.

"the workers should not make excessive demands, be recalcitrant, ask for more than they deserve, or go on strike. They should obey and comply"

God certainly moves in mysterious ways, or at least isn't in favour of a socialist economy.

That's only one part, and quoting a small portion distorts the message.

The origin of these difficulties is twofold: One is the excessive greed and rapacity of the factory owners, and the other is the gratuitous demands, the greed, and the intransigence of the workers. One must therefore seek to address both.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Some Answered Questions", 78.1

Now, the root cause of these difficulties lies in the law of nature that governs present-day civilization, for it results in a handful of people accumulating vast fortunes that far exceed their needs, while the greater number remain naked, destitute, and helpless. This is at once contrary to justice, to humanity, and to fairness; it is the very height of inequity and runs counter to the good-pleasure of the All-Merciful.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Some Answered Questions", 78.2

Later:

For their part, the workers should not make excessive demands, be recalcitrant, ask for more than they deserve, or go on strike. They should obey and comply and make no demands for exorbitant wages. Rather, the mutual and equitable rights of both parties should be officially fixed and established according to the laws of justice and compassion, and any party that violates them should be condemned after a fair hearing and be subject to a definitive verdict enforced by the executive branch, so that all affairs may be appropriately ordered and all problems adequately resolved.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Some Answered Questions", 78.9

The intervention of the government and the courts in the problems arising between owners and workers is fully warranted, since these are not such particular matters as are ordinary transactions between two individuals, which do not concern the public and in which the government should have no right to interfere. For problems between owners and workers, though they may appear to be a private matter, are detrimental to the common good, since the commercial, industrial, and agricultural affairs, and even the general business of the nation, are all intimately linked together: An impairment to one is a loss to all. And since the problems between owners and workers are detrimental to the common good, the government and the courts have therefore the right to intervene.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Some Answered Questions", 78.10

Even in the case of differences that arise between two individuals with regard to particular rights, a third party, namely the government, is needed to resolve the dispute. How, then, can the problem of strikes, which entirely disrupt the country — whether they arise from the inordinate demands of the workers or the excessive greed of the factory owners — remain neglected?
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Some Answered Questions", 78.11

 

[Truthseeker]

Yes, we've been over it many times and it still doesn't make sense. You like it. You believe it, fine. Again, I think the resurrection story is told and meant to be believed as an actual event. Baha'is take it as an allegorical story. I don't think it is. And, if it didn't really happen, then I wouldn't call it an "allegorical" story, I'd call it a made up, fictional lie.

Maybe it isn't an allegorical story, we just don't know. We have beliefs but we don't know.

 

[Trailblazer]

Two things... First, why not believe in the resurrection then? Who's it going to hurt to agree with the gospel story? Jesus came back to life, went to heaven, but you can still have Baha'u'llah coming as "The Christ" but with a new name.

It does not hurt anything to believe the resurrection story, because as you said Jesus went to heaven and there is no reason to think Jesus was coming back to earth from heaven, since Jesus never promised to return and said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. I know a Baha'i who said that Jesus might have risen but it does not affect his Baha'i beliefs.

The Baha'is don't need a virgin born Jesus. Where is that TB that says the Bible are just stories. They are not, and don't have to be, historical truth. Beautiful story. Shepherds visited by angels. Magi following a moving star. But why believed it literally happened? Why not make it allegorical also?

As I have told you several times, Baha'is believe in the Virgin Birth because it was confirmed by Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha. It is really that simple. As I recall, some of this about the star that appeared is explained in The Kitab-i-Iqan. Just because 'some' of the Bible stories are allegorical that does not mean that 'all' the Bible stories are allegorical.

 

[Truthseeker]

I did not see that embedded in it.

Did you look at the whole document or just what was quoted here?

 

[Trailblazer]

Did you look at the whole document or just what was quoted here?

I only looked at what was quoted here.