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Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Ok then redefine “objective evidence” so that I can know what you mean.

You've already had it defined. While some of what you posted was actually objective facts, they didn't unambiguously support the proposition of some god existing. To the extent it's anything, it's a classic god-of-the-gaps 'argument'. Here's something we can't explain yet, so godditit!

The existence of a mystery does not make your favourite just-so story about it any more believable.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
Obviously I understand that your definition is incomplete, so I give you the opportunity to provide a good definition

Really? You would do that just for me? Does your generosity know no bounds?

There is no way for me to express the amount of gratitude for your giving me such an opportunity.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Really? You would do that just for me? Does your generosity know no bounds?

There is no way for me to express the amount of gratitude for your giving me such an opportunity.
Hadwaving

I meet your burden proof, I provided an example of “objective evidence”.(using your definition)

So ether become a theist or take my opportunity and provide a better definition.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
How many (of the thousands of) different gods have you tried talking to? Have you tried to contact the lizard aliens from Alpha Centauri? Have you done an exhaustive investigation into pots of gold at the end of rainbows to rule out leprechauns?
Perhaps you could start by calling on whatever God is out there.
Let him reveal who he is instead of assuming you know.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Perhaps you could start by calling on whatever God is out there.

You are assuming there is one (and only one). Have you investigated any other mythical beings?

Anyway, let's try, shall we? Hello whatever god is out there! Make yourself known!

....waiting.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Ok and what characteristics would something that is “seemingly defined” should have?
Not "seemingly defined", but designed.

Meaning that you look at something in the Universe and say "That is designed intelligently", But also why such thing would be required to be designed in such way and not some other?. And why that is the best explanation for the observation?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Hello, I'm new to online forums. I chose this one specifically because I think it is very thought provoking. I love understanding and questioning different religious beliefs. I hope to have a debate that is robust, intriguing, and intellectually honest. I'm happy to debate anyone from any religious discipline and educational background. I currently do not have anyone to debate. I'll edit my title post, if possible, once the affirmative position has been occupied. Thanks in advance to anyone who will agree to debate. I'm ready to be convinced. Are you?
Welcome. Try this may be?
Defending the Validity of Religious/Spiritual Experiences
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
Hadwaving

Assuming you meant "handwaving," I'm afraid your definition of that term is flawed.

My statement was pure sarcasm peppered with a bit of snark.

I have no interest in debating the existence of God with you, nor do I have any interest in changing what you believe. But I do take exception to your claim of having objective evidence of God. No one does, and any claim otherwise is pure conjecture, which is all you've presented here.

I meet your burden proof, I provided an example of “objective evidence”.(using your definition)

Again, you did not. You merely provided an example of conjecture.

So ether become a theist or take my opportunity and provide a better definition.

Careful, now. It almost sounds like you're trying to convert me to theism. I would hope you would know better than to do that.

My definition is adequate.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
So you you are an atheist due to lack of evidence of (a) God? Couldn't you have just as easily been a believer (call it what you like) due to lack of evidence these is no God? Do you think your decision to be atheist was deliberate, random, or fated?
I find this inversion to be fascinating -- not least because it really is totally invalid. On any number of ideas, we humans tend to rely on the evidence before us to give them credence, or on the lack of any evidence to give them no credence. Really, everything but one.

There's no evidence for the tooth fairy, for Santa, for unicorns (especially invisible pink ones), of fairies or leprechauns, of thinking pasta, or of powder blue water buffalo, and as a result, we tend to suppose there aren't any of those things. There is evidence of tiny animals that seem almost indestructible by heat, freezing, radiation or the vacuum of space (tardigrades), so while they may have come as a surprise -- well, seeing is believing, eh? There is evidence of tiny things with an electric charge that nobody can see, but that can make computers work (electrons). They were discovered not all that long ago, but now we believe in them, because we have some evidence.

Only when it comes to God do we presume that lack of evidence that there is NO God, is a good reason to suppose that there is.

This, to me, is a totally irrational conclusion to come to.
 
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Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
The universe is Finely Tuned for the existence of life.

2 Spot the mistake and correct it
This is such a common error:

The universe can support life "as we know it." You have no basis for saying that if the universe were a little different, a different kind of "life" might well appear and evolve to think, "our universe is finely tuned for the existence of life."

Nobody ever stops to look at it the other way round: the universe is such that this kind of life is possible. Another kind of universe may well support another kind of life -- or none at all. But NOTHING says that any of them were "tuned" with any such result in mind.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
You are assuming there is one (and only one). Have you investigated any other mythical beings?

Anyway, let's try, shall we? Hello whatever god is out there! Make yourself known!

....waiting.


You have to ask with an open heart and an open mind. Humility also appears to be a prerequisite. Pride, and prejudice, are sure to shut you off from the sunlight of the spirit, so leave them at the door. Maybe then, if you sincerely search deep in your heart, you may find the Great Reality there; where it has always been.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Not "seemingly defined", but designed.

Meaning that you look at something in the Universe and say "That is designed intelligently", But also why such thing would be required to be designed in such way and not some other?. And why that is the best explanation for the observation?
ok and what characteristic does something has to have in order for you to conclude..... "That is designed intelligently""
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
This is such a common error:

The universe can support life "as we know it." You have no basis for saying that if the universe were a little different, a different kind of "life" might well appear and evolve to think, "our universe is finely tuned for the existence of life."

Nobody ever stops to look at it the other way round: the universe is such that this kind of life is possible. Another kind of universe may well support another kind of life -- or none at all. But NOTHING says that any of them were "tuned" with any such result in mind.


such that this kind of life is possible. Another kind of universe may well support another kind of life



That is false; a universe with say high entropy can’t support any kind of life.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So you you are an atheist due to lack of evidence of (a) God? Couldn't you have just as easily been a believer (call it what you like) due to lack of evidence these is no God?

If your method for deciding what is true about the world is faith, then you can believe anything. Nothing cannot be believed by faith.

But if you're a critical thinker, then you are a skeptic, you are open-minded, you are able to evaluate the soundness of an argument, and you are willing to be convinced by a compelling argument. By this method, only atheism is possible, as the evidence and arguments attached to them are not convincing.

So you claim to be an atheist, the burden of proof is on you, you have proof there is no God?

That's not what an atheist is. An atheist who claims to know that gods do not exist is claiming knowledge that he cannot possibly have.

I'm an atheist, and I make no assertions about gods other than that I don't believe those that say that there is one. Did you want me to prove that? That I don't believe in gods? Why would I?

Three things need to be true for one to have a burden of proof:

1. One needs to have made an existential claim about reality. Opinions no more need to be proven than disproven. It is my opinion that theists have not made a sufficient case for gods. Did you want proof that that is my opinion?

2. One needs to want to be believed. It's not important that anyone believe me when I say that I'm an atheist, especially those who are thinking that I'm lying or mistaken. Also, there are times when I will make a comment that is common knowledge among people educated in the topic - say evolution - that will be challenged by somebody uneducated in the subject, somebody that can't define genetic variation or natural selection, who knows nothing about

3. Finally, one must be dealing with somebody like I described above - somebody willing and able to consider an argument dispassionately and be convinced by an argument that would convince most experienced critical thinkers. How often does the faith-based thinker tell us that there is no evidence for biological evolution. What's my burden with a person that wears a faith-based confirmation bias to filter out evidence he doesn't like, and is unskilled at both reasoning and evaluating evidence.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic? Water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. What if someone says, "Well, that's not how I choose to think about water"? All we can do is appeal to scientific values. And if he doesn't share those values, the conversation is over." - Sam Harris


But you are a deliberate atheist, you must have proof there is no God, right?

Nope. No atheist needs proof that there is no god to not believe that there is one. This is not the same as saying that you believe no gods exist.

Are you sure you are an atheist?

How could he be mistaken about not having a god belief?

So all atheist believe exactly the same thing as you do, kinda like a religion or something?

All atheists have but one belief in common, apart from the belief that nothing should be believed beyond what the quantity and quality of the available evidence supports.

I do not debate anyone who is "ready to be convinces". That is a clear way of saying his mind is already made up and he just wants to try to prove others are wrong.

So how would somebody that is willing to be convinced by a compelling argument, i.e. is open-minded, express that to you?

I can assure you that he is sincere and open-minded. He's also qualified to assess the argument dispassionately and come to sound conclusions about it. I've read enough of his words to know that.

But he's probably like me in that he knows that after years of theists making unconvincing arguments supported by no evidence or evidence misinterpreted, they never will have a convincing argument. Once again, this is not the same as saying that they are wrong about gods, just that if they are right, however certain they feel, they have only guessed correctly and can't know that they are right, just as I might have actually guessed the winning lotto numbers for tonight, and I may 100% sure that they will win, but unless the lotto is rigged, he can't possibly know that he has guessed correctly until the winning numbers are announced. That's where I place the theists making god arguments. Even if they have guessed correctly, they can't possibly know they have, and they can't give a good argument for believing their guess.

It's worse for those arguing on behalf of the god of the Christian Bible. That god has been ruled out both logically and empirically. That god is said to be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent. He is said to love us and to be capable of intervening in out lives. And he is said to want to be known, understood, believed, loved, obeyed, and worshiped. We are told that he created the kinds de novo, which is in contradiction to the mountain of evidence supporting naturalistic evolution. Christian creationists don't seem to realize that even were evolution falsified, it doesn't restore the god of the Christian Bible. It simply means that some superhuman intelligence and power created life and planted assorted stratified layers of fossils ranging from more modern forms with younger radionuclide dates on top to older, less familiar forms below, and also inserted various nested hierarchies into the genetics, biochemistry, anatomy, and physiology of the tree of life to make it look like they have a common ancestor.

The argument from pure reason that this god cannot exist is that it is described as simultaneously having mutually exclusive characteristics, such as being being perfect, but also making mistakes and regretting them. This is the theological equivalent of the married bachelor. One doesn't even need to get up out of his armchair to know that no such thing can be found anywhere, that its existence is logically impossible.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I wonder what you think about William Lane Craig's Kalam Cosmological argument.

It's a fallacious argument. It's a non sequitur - the conclusions don't follow from what preceded them.

Here's the argument.

P1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause (he claims this is a metaphysical principle, but it can be argued inductively -- probabilistically -- as well given our experience of cause-and-effect).
P2. The universe began to exist (he uses the 2nd law of thermodynamics, the Wall theorem and infinity paradoxes)
C. Therefore, the universe has a cause (follows from premises 1 and 2).

That's incomplete. It's only the first syllogism. The second one begins with this conclusion as a premise. I'll condense them:

P1 “Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its existence.”
P2 “The universe began to exist.”
C “Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence.”

P1. “The universe has a cause of its existence.”
P2 “If the universe has a cause of its existence, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans creation is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless, and enormously powerful and intelligent.”
C “Therefore, an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans creation is “beginningless,” changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless, and enormously powerful and intelligent.”

Many would challenge the soundness of both P1 and P2 in the first syllogism, but I've skipped over that to get to the easy part of the refutation in the second one.
Look at P2 in the second syllogism. That's the non sequitur.

For starters, he assumes that such qualities such as changelessness or timelessness are required in a creator, assumptions he hasn't established, and are easily refuted. Existence itself implies being in time. Existence is occupying a series of consecutive instants. Does this god think or create? These each require a before and after state.

And he has unjustifiably dropped the multiverse from his list of candidate conclusions.

it is evidently true that nothing can come into existence without a cause

You can't judge by experience, because all human experience occurs within the universe. Furthermore, we have quantum physics, which says that submicroscopic reality is not deterministic, and that particles can come into existence or transform as with radioactive decay without cause. The early universe is thought to have existed at this scale.

The argument is that since we know a subset of things that began to exist and had a cause, we're in our epistemic rights to believe that other members of the set (in this case, space-time, which is a thing) also had a cause.

What is true of the subset is not necessarily true of the collective. What is true about objects in the universe isn't necessarily true about the universe itself.

"The fallacy of composition is an informal fallacy that arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole. The fallacy of composition can apply even when a fact is true of every proper part of a greater entity, though: "No atoms are alive. Therefore, nothing made of atoms is alive." This is a statement most people would consider incorrect, due to emergence, where the whole possesses properties not present in any of the parts. More examples: If someone stands up out of their seat at a cricket match, they can see better. Therefore, if everyone stands up, they can all see better. Some people can become millionaires with the right business concept. Therefore, if everyone has the right business concept, everyone will become a millionaire. If a runner runs faster, he can win the race. Therefore, if all the runners run faster, they can all win the race."

We see this when we consider the quantum world and the world we occupy with the unaided senses. The rules for the two scales of existence are different. Rules that are valid in one are not necessarily valid in the other.
 
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