Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Tiberius]

I always heard the Messiah was going to bring peace. Christians say, "Well, when he comes back, he'll bring peace." Baha'is say, "Well, someday, when the world puts the principles that Baha'u'llah brought, there will be peace." Right now, no peace.. so no Messiah. But, the good news, both predict terrible times before we get peace. So they both are dead on with that prediction... at least the first part of it.

Of course, it doesn't require visions of the future from God to predict that Humans are going to be horrible to each other...

 

[Tiberius]

Believers don't keep religion unfalsifiable. Religion can only be proven true or false by individual investigation and research, and can only be proven true or false to oneself, not universally.

Yes they do. They never provide any testable claims. Nothing that is actually testable, I mean. Just your, "I've experienced so I've verified it for myself" kind of claim.

Nobody is trying to prevent you from testing religious beliefs. If you think there is a way to test religious beliefs come up with a method.

So religion IS unfalsifiable. And why would that be unless people were trying to keep it unfalsifiable?

That's right, but what do you think can be done about that?

Nothing. That's why religion should be grouped in with the gravity fairies I mentioned back in post 1249.

I do not believe they are literally true and I see no way they could ever be tested.

You don't see how it could be tested? REALLY? It literally says, "Believers will be able to drink poison and handle deadly snakes and not die." This is EXTREMELY testable. How in the world do you figure that this claim is untestable?

You'd have better luck testing something that Baha'ulah wrote, at least it is pragmatic. I have tested that and it worked for me. Make an effort and then see what happens.

“Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267

That does not make any specific claims. And any feeling of "guidance" could be the result of any number of things.

No, that is not the same at all. Having a dream does not verify anything. You are unconscious when dreaming so your conscious mind is not working to verify anything. Anything could come out in a dream and it does not mean it is true. I am talking about using your rational mind and making a concerted effort to determine if the belief is true by research and study. That is how you verify a religious belief.

Ah, but what about if I read about a guy who dreamed he won the lottery and then he actually won it? That fits with my dream, so there's real world evidence I am right!

*Rolls eyes*

It does not count that we knew about coronaviruses. The vaccines for Covid-19 are new and they have not been tested enough.

I'm sorry, have you studied immunology?

Any other position would be ludicrous.

Any other position would reveal it as wrong, and since you can't have that, you claim it is ludicrous.

That's right, so what can be done about that?

Nothing. That's why religions are worthless as a way of finding out the truth.

 

[Tiberius]

AGAIN, I was not saying that text proves the religion is true, I was saying it proves that the Baha'i Faith teaches that ALL religions are true. If you read it you would understand what I mean.

No, Baha'i faith teaches that the Baha'i interpretation of all religions are true.

AGAIN, the scientific method cannot be used to verify a religion. We are going in circles.

Except we weren't talking about verifying religion, were we? I was specifically talking about the method I personally use to make sure that when I judge the validity of evidence I can do so in as unbiased a way as possible. Because I know that if I don't, I could end up concluding something is true just because I want it to be true.

Let me refresh you of our conversation that led up to that.

...you said things like I believe because I want to believe

You miss my point. EVERYONE has biases, and EVERYONE is going to be more accepting of anything that supports what they already believe is true.

And so? The same applies to you since you are part of everyone.

Yes, that is true.

That's why I use the only method we know of to reduce and eliminate any personal biases. It's called science.

See? We were talking about eliminating biases, not verifying religion. Please don't misrepresent what I say. That's called a STRAWMAN ARGUMENT, and it's one of those logical fallacies you say you don't use.

It would not be evidence for what I believe if it did not SUPPORT what I believe. I do not believe evidence that contradicts what I believe because I have already determined that what I believe is true. I am not looking at evidence to determine if my belief is true. I did that work a long time ago so I already know that my belief is true true.

So, here's a question...

Do you want to get evidence for what you believe?

Or do you want to get evidence for what is true?

The facts surrounding the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

And what verifiable facts were those?

Baha'u'llah made the claim so He had the burden and He met the burden by telling us what the evidence is that supports His claim.

So he only gave one side of the evidence.

I can agree with that.

Then I trust you'll present more than just claims in the future.

 

[Tiberius]

That position is not valid because:

1. All religions are small in the beginning, and
2. Baha'is don't claim to have the ONE true religion, we believe that ALL the religions are true. We do not believe we are chosen but rather we are the small handful of believers who have chosen to believe in Baha'u'llah.

Toe-may-toe, toe-mah-toe. You claim that Baha'is have the one true interpretation of other religions.

When did I do that?

When you said, "It is not likely to be the only one true religion, as Jews believe, since no loving God would single out a small handful of people as His chosen people and leave the rest of the world standing out in the cold.

You were directly correlating the largeness of a religion with it's trueness.

I think that many religious beliefs are just wrong because the older religions have been changed and corrupted by man. However, what was initially revealed by all the Messengers of God was true.

So old belief automatically equals wrong?

 

[CG Didymus]

Of course, it doesn't require visions of the future from God to predict that Humans are going to be horrible to each other...

Yeah, I guess that's not too profound to say that if "you don't listen to me and do as I say things will get worse." But was that what was prophesied? That the Messiah comes, most people reject him, he dies and things get worse?

But what did Baha'u'llah really expect? And if the world accepted him and put his plans into effect, would they have worked? We have his plans on making a Baha'i world. Do they make sense? Are there problems? I think yes. It doesn't sound like a peaceful world when the Baha'i Faith includes capitol punishment. It also says that all the nations should ban together and put down any revolt from some rogue nation. Then there's the moral laws like no sex before marriage and no alcoholic drinks and it prohibits homosexuality. If the world had made Baha'i laws the laws of the land, how were they going to enforce them? We have examples of similar religious laws. Do they work? How are they enforced? Do the leaders of the religion even abide by them? Have those laws brought peace and harmony?

Maybe the Baha'i Faith would be different. They seem to think so. So how is their administrative order working for them? That's why I brought up the "A Modest Proposal" article. It was critical of the way things were being done, and the Baha'is leadership shut down the magazine that was going to print the article. It will expect and demand complete obedience. Was the world ready to give that kind of power to a man claiming to be speaking for God? Is it ready now to put the whole world in the hands of his followers?

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes they do. They never provide any testable claims. Nothing that is actually testable, I mean. Just your, "I've experienced so I've verified it for myself" kind of claim.

The old religions always had "proofs" that God was real. The people asked Moses, "Where is God now when we need him?" And Moses lifted his hands and the seas parted. Other times angels of the Lord were sent. A prophet would say something and the thing happened. Elijah called fire from heaven. Jesus walked on water.

Baha'is say that miracles are only proof to those that witnessed them. But they also work as proof to those that believe that those stories really happened. But did they? Even Baha'is question that. And often say that those things didn't really happen. So there goes the proof. And worse, the proof ends up being a fabricated story.

There is no evidence of any religion working perfectly. Why would anyone expect the Baha'i Faith to be different when it depends on fallible people to make it work? Are the Baha'is bringing peace and harmony to the world? Bringing love and respect and understanding to people that may have an opposing view? Maybe some are, but not all of them. Some are doing a very good job at dividing people.

 

[CG Didymus]

Every faith claims that their holy texts proves that their faith is true.

Yes, and they have their "proofs."

AGAIN, I was not saying that text proves the religion is true, I was saying it proves that the Baha'i Faith teaches that ALL religions are true. If you read it you would understand what I mean.

Sometimes the Baha'is, themselves, reject the "proofs" of the other religions. Like the Christians that claim Jesus coming back to life is proof he is from God and is God.

No, Baha'i faith teaches that the Baha'i interpretation of all religions are true.

Yes, like Krishna is not an "incarnation" he is a "manifestation."

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes they do. They never provide any testable claims. Nothing that is actually testable, I mean. Just your, "I've experienced so I've verified it for myself" kind of claim.

So religion IS unfalsifiable. And why would that be unless people were trying to keep it unfalsifiable?

How do you think that people keep it that way?

You don't see how it could be tested? REALLY? It literally says, "Believers will be able to drink poison and handle deadly snakes and not die." This is EXTREMELY testable. How in the world do you figure that this claim is untestable?

You are really naive if you think the verses are to be taken literally, but why not try it if you believe that?
Drink poison and handle deadly snakes and see what happens. If you did not die would you become a Christian?

That does not make any specific claims. And any feeling of "guidance" could be the result of any number of things.

That is true, but if you are guided you will know it. That's how it works. It is like I have been saying prayers for 90 minutes a day for about a week and I knew they were answered. I was not expecting anything, I never do, I just throw it over the net and see what comes back and it never ceases to amaze me when it does.

Nothing. That's why religions are worthless as a way of finding out the truth.

If that is what you have concluded why bother talking about religion?

 

[Trailblazer]

No, Baha'i faith teaches that the Baha'i interpretation of all religions are true.

No, it does not teach that. It just helps us understand the other religions.

“Let no one, however, mistake my purpose. The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest 58 degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause. Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose. It is neither eclectic in the presentation of its truths, nor arrogant in the affirmation of its claims. Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final. Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.” The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, pp, 57-58

Fundamental Principle of Religious Truth

Except we weren't talking about verifying religion, were we? I was specifically talking about the method I personally use to make sure that when I judge the validity of evidence I can do so in as unbiased a way as possible. Because I know that if I don't, I could end up concluding something is true just because I want it to be true.

Let me refresh you of our conversation that led up to that.

See? We were talking about eliminating biases, not verifying religion. Please don't misrepresent what I say. That's called a STRAWMAN ARGUMENT, and it's one of those logical fallacies you say you don't use.

The goal of doing an independent investigation of truth is not to eliminate biases as there will always be personal biases. The goal is to discover the truth. Sometimes I want Christianity to be true because it would be a lot easier than being a Baha'i but I cannot believe in something that does not pass my tests of being logical and useful for the betterment of humanity and being all-inclusive. I am biased towards a religion that meets those qualifications whereas a Christian might be biased in favor a of a religion where they can have a personal relationship with God through Jesus and feel loved by Jesus. We all have different life histories which lead to our values and things we are drawn to.

So, here's a question...

Do you want to get evidence for what you believe?

Or do you want to get evidence for what is true?

I already have evidence for what I believe.

I wanted to know what was true. The way I could know what is true was by looking at the evidence I have looked at the evidence for what I believe and determined that what I believe is true.

And what verifiable facts were those?

The history of the Baha'i Faith, including what Baha'u'llah was like as a person and how prophecies were fulfilled by His coming.

So he only gave one side of the evidence.

The evidence is the evidence, there are no sides of the evidence. People either believe that the evidence for Baha'u'llah indicates that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be or they do not believe that. People can take sides regarding whether the evidence proves the belief is true or false.

 

[Trailblazer]

Toe-may-toe, toe-mah-toe. You claim that Baha'is have the one true interpretation of other religions.

No, I never claimed that, but if you want to believe what you hear other people on this forum say that's your choice. Baha'is do not even bother interpreting other religions unless we are backed into a corner as we often are on this forum. When that happens we give our concerted opinions according to what we know.

When you said, "It is not likely to be the only one true religion, as Jews believe, since no loving God would single out a small handful of people as His chosen people and leave the rest of the world standing out in the cold.

You were directly correlating the largeness of a religion with it's trueness.

No, because I did not say that the larger religions such as Christianity and Islam are truer than Judaism just because they are larger than Judaism. All those religions are true religions although they have been corrupted by man. However, Christianity and Islam have more truth than Judaism because both of them recognized Jesus.

So old belief automatically equals wrong?

No, the spiritual truths revealed in the older scriptures are eternal so they will always be true. However the teachings of the religions have been corrupted by the religious leaders.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when 172 the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings, p. 171-172

 

[Tiberius]

How do you think that people keep it that way?

By never making any falsifiable claims, and when there are falsifiable claims about a religion (say, certain passages in a holy text), they handwave it away as, "Oh, that passage wasn't meant to be literal."

You are really naive if you think the verses are to be taken literally, but why not try it if you believe that?
Drink poison and handle deadly snakes and see what happens.

Again, I'm an atheist. I know the claims are full of bunk.

If you did not die would you become a Christian?

To be honest, if the claims made in the Bible were true, if Christians were able to drink poison and get bitten by snakes and yet never died from them, or if they could pray for a mountain to move and the mountain actually did, yes, I would consider that pretty strong evidence that they had it right.

That is true, but if you are guided you will know it. That's how it works. It is like I have been saying prayers for 90 minutes a day for about a week and I knew they were answered. I was not expecting anything, I never do, I just throw it over the net and see what comes back and it never ceases to amaze me when it does.

Yeah, any line of argument that ends with, "When it happens, you'll know" is meaningless. There needs to be some way of actually verifying that the results were a direct result of prayer being acted upon by some supernatural entity.

Otherwise, how do you know that what you got wasn't just believing it because you wanted it to be true, or latching onto any coincidental event that would appear to answer your prayers and concluding that it was a result of those prayers?

[/quote]If that is what you have concluded why bother talking about religion?[/QUOTE]

If you have concluded that Baha'i is true, why do you bother talking about it in here?

 

[Tiberius]

No, it does not teach that. It just helps us understand the other religions.

“Let no one, however, mistake my purpose. The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest 58 degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause. Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose. It is neither eclectic in the presentation of its truths, nor arrogant in the affirmation of its claims. Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final. Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.” The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, pp, 57-58

Fundamental Principle of Religious Truth

Given the number of times you have dismissed Christian beliefs as being incorrect interpretations, you'll understand, I'm sure, that I do not believe that you practice what you preach.

The goal of doing an independent investigation of truth is not to eliminate biases as there will always be personal biases. The goal is to discover the truth. Sometimes I want Christianity to be true because it would be a lot easier than being a Baha'i but I cannot believe in something that does not pass my tests of being logical and useful for the betterment of humanity and being all-inclusive. I am biased towards a religion that meets those qualifications whereas a Christian might be biased in favor a of a religion where they can have a personal relationship with God through Jesus and feel loved by Jesus. We all have different life histories which lead to our values and things we are drawn to.

Did you just ignore completely what I said?

I already have evidence for what I believe.

I wanted to know what was true. The way I could know what is true was by looking at the evidence I have looked at the evidence for what I believe and determined that what I believe is true.

You have beliefs that you have not been able to demonstrate the validity of to anyone else. You have convictions, not evidence.

The history of the Baha'i Faith, including what Baha'u'llah was like as a person and how prophecies were fulfilled by His coming.

Have I ever denied that he was a real person? Have I ever denied that he did the things that are attributed to him? Have I ever denied that he said the things you've told me he said? No. Not once. The opposite, in fact. I have agreed with you that those particular claims are verifiable, and I have agreed that they have indeed been verified.

But NONE of those verifiable facts show that Mr B was an actual messenger from God.

The evidence is the evidence, there are no sides of the evidence. People either believe that the evidence for Baha'u'llah indicates that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be or they do not believe that. People can take sides regarding whether the evidence proves the belief is true or false.

That's incorrect.

If a person presents the evidence that shows they are correct but does not show the evidence that shows they are wrong, then they deliberately misrepresenting the evidence.

 

[Tiberius]

No, I never claimed that, but if you want to believe what you hear other people on this forum say that's your choice. Baha'is do not even bother interpreting other religions unless we are backed into a corner as we often are on this forum. When that happens we give our concerted opinions according to what we know.

You have repeatedly said that the Christian interpretation of various passages in the Bible is wrong and presented your own interpretation.

No, because I did not say that the larger religions such as Christianity and Islam are truer than Judaism just because they are larger than Judaism. All those religions are true religions although they have been corrupted by man. However, Christianity and Islam have more truth than Judaism because both of them recognized Jesus.

You do realise that the claim that a particular religion is less true because it is smaller establishes a direct correlation between size and how true it is, yes?

No, the spiritual truths revealed in the older scriptures are eternal so they will always be true. However the teachings of the religions have been corrupted by the religious leaders.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when 172 the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings, p. 171-172

Tell me again how you DON'T claim that the way other religions interpret their own holy texts is wrong, but Baha'is get it right.

 

[CG Didymus]

There's truth in every religion. Christianity, Islam, Baha'i or whatever.

And does that make every religion true? I'm sure there's some "truth" in every cult too, but would you recommend that a person get involved with one them?

 

[CG Didymus]

Religion can only be proven true or false by individual investigation and research, and can only be proven true or false to oneself, not universally.

Take a strong believer out of every religion and even every sect of every religion and see what they say about why they think what they believe is true. I'd suspect the answers would be very similar, yet they all believe in something very different. What do you think? We've probably got people here on the forum we could ask.

 

[CG Didymus]

it proves that the Baha'i Faith teaches that ALL religions are true.

And I think that is misleading. As is? The way religions believe right now? Baha'is believe they are all true? No, I don't think so. I've asked before, name one religious group that you believe teaches exactly the correct truth? That is, other than your own. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Baha'is believe just the opposite... that none of them are true and all of them have some false beliefs and doctrines. So can you name one? Or do you want to revise your statement to something like, "The Baha'is believe 'originally' all religions were true, then all of them got screwed up with false beliefs and doctrines."

 

[CG Didymus]

I did that work a long time ago so I already know that my belief is true true.

Again, you haven't learned anything new since then? And everything you've learned only confirms what you believe? And nothing at least makes you wonder if what you believe is the truth or not? And you're not biased but can still look at things objectively?

 

[CG Didymus]

All religions are small in the beginning,

But they are trying to grow. How successful are they at getting and keeping new members? They were talking "entry by troops" fifty years ago, what happened?

 

[CG Didymus]

Of course, it doesn't require visions of the future from God to predict that Humans are going to be horrible to each other...

Maybe I'm wrong, but I had the impression that Jesus comes back and kicks some %#& and casts the devil and all the evil people into a fiery hole in the ground. Baha'u'llah came and went and Baha'is are slowing building a new world order. And they say, "Some day there will be peace and unity." Only one flaw, without him being here, it is left up to people, fallible people, to make his dream come true. Has any religion been able to not have people mess things up? And the worse mess up when the followers take the religion too seriously and too literally. And do we have evidence that some Baha'is might be doing that?

 

[Truthseeker]

And does that make every religion true? I'm sure there's some "truth" in every cult too, but would you recommend that a person get involved with one them?

Not really, not to some cult. In fact, I recommend in any religion to decide for yourself and not follow some denomination or sect of a religion that tells you how you should think pretty much. That habit of not thinking for yourself has led to the dilemma where 78% of Republicans believe that Biden didn't win the last election.