Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[night912]

The other problem is when people think that they know how another person arrived at their belief when they don’t know the half of it. According to my beliefs, it is wrong to judge other people and call them names such as irrational, illogical and unreasonable. That is also a Christian belief, judge not lest ye be judged. Why are people compelled to do this? I see no other reason why people would criticize another person except ego: I am right and you are wrong, so the other person has to be labeled wrong in order for the criticizer to be right.

It does not make any difference what I say about myself because you do not believe me anyway.
You have already decided you know all about me but you don't know me from Adam.

I thought you were different from some atheists on this forum but that just goes to show that I can be wrong.

That would qualify as judging.

Also, did you not judge Baha'u'llah by his character in order to help you verify that he was a messenger of God?

 

[Trailblazer]

That would qualify as judging.

Yes, judging in the sense that I used my judgment.

Also, did you not judge Baha'u'llah by his character in order to help you verify that he was a messenger of God?

Yes, I used my judgment, as we are required to do in order to make determinations.

 

[CG Didymus]

No William Sears is not infallible, I am a William Sears guided Baha'i though. It was the book God Loves Laughter that inspire me and Thief in the Night amazed me.

One thing to consider though, many of the prophecy William Sears used was already put into circulation by previous Biblical Scholars.

George Townsend books are a must read, as Mr Townsend was a Christian Minister and wrote from that perspective.

George Townshend (Baháʼí) - Wikipedia

Christ and Baha'u'llah being a great read.

Regards Tony

I'm sure every religion, every sect of every religion and even every religious cult has their "inspirational" stories and books. So, unfortunately, it proves nothing. As we've seen, a book like the Bible can inspire people to the point where they take the extreme view that everything must be believed as literally as possible. Baha'is have a similar view of their religion. Everything that Baha'u'llah has said, that Abdul Baha said and it seems that the Guardian, Shoghi Effendi and now the UHJ all are taken as The Truth... and should be accepted without question.

Yet, some of us question some of the things taught by the Baha'i Faith. Some of the things taught by the Baha'i Faith make some of us doubt the validity of the claims of Baha'u'llah that he is speaking for God. Because of this, the good things taught by the Baha'i Faith are lost. Belief in the truth of the Baha'i Faith becomes an all or nothing situation. Who's going to say that love for one another and getting rid of prejudices of all kinds aren't good things. But who is going to say that the Baha'i Faith is the true religion from God for today without questioning it? So then how do you prove that? What evidence do Baha'is have to support that belief?

His "self" and his "character"? How do you prove that? Stories about how wonderful and spiritual person he was? His "mission" and his writings? As if any of things aren't going to illicit questions. He's the promised one prophesied by every religion? That has brought on endless questions. But you've answered those questions for yourself. What were those answers? I'm sure some became unimportant to you. How did you change once you believed? Why is the Baha'i Faith your truth? That's the only real thing any religious person can share with others.

But even with that, does it really matter what a person believes as long as they believe it? Most any religious belief is going to make a person better in many ways. But it's also going to make them more convinced that what they believe is the truth, and sometimes believe it is the only truth. Or, with Baha'is, the truth for today.

 

[CG Didymus]

I could just as easily say, "The Baha'i interpretation is biased because it is based upon what Baha'is want to be true."

So I think this all started with the virgin birth question. The Baha'is believe Jesus was born of a virgin. One gospel writer quote Isaiah 7:14 and says, "You see, it was prophesied.' Only one other gospel writer mentions the virgin birth. Nothing else about it in the rest of the NT.

Jews say, "Hold on, that's our Scriptures you're quoting and Isaiah 7:14 has nothing to do with the Messiah being born of a virgin. This was a sign for one of our kings and it got fulfilled hundreds of years before there was a Jesus."

But who even wrote Isaiah? Then who translated the Hebrew word "Almah" as "virgin"? Was this sign in Isaiah written before or after the event in question? Then we get to whoever the person was that wrote Matthew. He wasn't there when Jesus was born, where did he get his information? Are there other birth stories and traditions about Jesus? If so, why is this one made into "Scripture" and the "Word" of God? It was voted in and canonized way later. But there is one more official Scripture story the one in Luke. It is way different than the one in Matthew. Since the person who wrote Luke wasn't there either, where did he get his information from?

Then the Baha'is... they make many Biblical stories allegorical. Why not the virgin birth story also? Because it is supported in the Quran? But the Quran says that Jesus was not killed in the crucifixion, but Baha'is say he was. So they don't necessarily follow everything that the Quran says. Plus, the Quran has the young Jesus making clay birds and having them come to life and flying away. I don't think Baha'is take that literally. So why the virgin birth?

Too many places where things can go wrong. Starting with the Hebrew Bible? Where did it come from? How long before the oral stories got written down? Then it is the Scriptures of Judaism, not Christianity. But Christians know better how to interpret it correctly? Then Islam knows better how to interpret the NT and the Bible? And now the Baha'is know best on what the true interpretation of all of them was?

And since Baha'is know best, they can say that the Jews are wrong... one out of context verse that has a question translation of a Hebrew word, is a prophecy about Jesus being born of a virgin? And still, we know this is true because Baha'u'llah said so. Not because an unbiased study of Isaiah chapter seven was taken. But, with all the other questions, would that really mean anything real anyway? It's all just religions saying the things that support their view.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't know what in acts you are referring to. Jesus going up to heaven? If He was physical there, where would He go and stay alive? There is endless space up there.

Anyway, it's not what it says but what we each understand what it says. My friend Dale used to say in everything you read you are interpreting. You can't help it. The Bible says only how we interpret it. At times we rely on what we believe is infallible interpretation. But not much of the New Testament is interpreted infallibly in our view. It is up to each of us to interpret for ourselves, using what we call independent investigation of truth.

The first is the independent investigation of truth; for blind imitation of the past will stunt the mind. But once every soul inquireth into truth, society will be freed from the darkness of continually repeating the past.
(Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá)
www.bahai.org/r/721224234

Among these teachings was the independent investigation of reality so that the world of humanity may be saved from the darkness of imitation and attain to the truth; may tear off and cast away this ragged and outgrown garment of a thousand years ago and may put on the robe woven in the utmost purity and holiness in the loom of reality. As reality is one and cannot admit of multiplicity, therefore different opinions must ultimately become fused into one.
(Tablets to The Hague)
www.bahai.org/r/238114283

Use your own independent investigation.

And how thorough is our "independent" investigating?

Act 1:3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive.​

I had tons of questions about Revelation. Many involved who the "Lamb" and the "Lamb that was slain" was. I forget now, but I think I was saying that this "Lamb" was the one returning. And in context, the "Lamb" seemed to be Jesus. One Baha'is agreed, but still insists that Jesus never said he was going to return. Another Baha'i said the he thought the "Lamb that was slain" was The Bab, because Jesus was crucified whereas The Bab was shot. Whatever. It kind of does become "Whatever floats your boat load of beliefs. Things that contradict it have to be explained away or ignored and anything that supports it becomes what is the most important.

So how do Baha'is explain away Act 1:3? For me it's easy. I don't have to believe the NT is true. I can just say Luke made it up.

And that's kind of what I was saying in a previous post. The "truth" of the Bible and NT is lost because it is expected that the whole thing be accepted as God's truth. So the good spiritual teachings, whatever they are, are lost because the whole book gets rejected because of the unbelievable things it says like the creation story and Jesus floating off into space.

Baha'is kind of have a way to "believe" in it as true, but not to believe some of the things as literally true. Which, as I've said, doesn't work for me because most of the supposed allegorical stories, the main one being the resurrection story, are written as if they really happened. To me, if the writers knew and meant for them to be taken allegorically, they should have made that clear. They did it with the parables of Jesus, but not with their own "allegorical" stories? Then to top it off, Luke says that, indeed, Jesus showed himself alive. How do Baha'is make the resurrection allegorical? Of course it's not believable. If so, then why not just say they lied? They made it up? It was nothing but fiction? But I know why you can't. By saying it is allegorical, Baha'i can say the "yes" they do believe in the Bible... just not literally.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is evidence that the Baha'i Faith is truth. But you have determine for yourself through independent investigation which involves by the way spiritual perception as well as reason. Here is what Baha'u'llah asked of us to be "true" seeker:


But, O my brother, when a true seeker determineth to take the step of search in the path leading to the knowledge of the Ancient of Days, he must, before all else, cleanse and purify his heart, which is the seat of the revelation of the inner mysteries of God, from the obscuring dust of all acquired knowledge, and the allusions of the embodiments of satanic fancy. He must purge his breast, which is the sanctuary of the abiding love of the Beloved, of every defilement, and sanctify his soul from all that pertaineth to water and clay, from all shadowy and ephemeral attachments. He must so cleanse his heart that no remnant of either love or hate may linger therein, lest that love blindly incline him to error, or that hate repel him away from the truth. Even as thou dost witness in this day how most of the people, because of such love and hate, are bereft of the immortal Face, have strayed far from the Embodiments of the divine mysteries, and, shepherdless, are roaming through the wilderness of oblivion and error. That seeker must at all times put his trust in God, must renounce the peoples of the earth, detach himself from the world of dust, and cleave unto Him Who is the Lord of Lords. He must never seek to exalt himself above anyone, must wash away from the tablet of his heart every trace of pride and vainglory, must cling unto patience and resignation, observe silence, and refrain from idle talk. For the tongue is a smoldering fire, and excess of speech a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the effects of the latter endure a century.

151 he shall enjoy the blessing conferred by the words: “In Our ways shall We assuredly guide him.”
(The Kitáb-i-Íqán)
www.bahai.org/r/477357906

I should hasten to add that if this seems impossible, in my opinion He is talking about a condition of true seeking that takes a person to the highest realm of recognizing Baha'u'llah. In a general way, though, the more we meet these conditions the better our chance of finding the truth.

Know ye from what heights your Lord, the All-Glorious, is calling? Think ye that ye have recognized the Pen wherewith your Lord, the Lord of all names, commandeth you? Nay, by My life! Did ye but know it, ye would renounce the world, and would hasten with your whole hearts to the presence of the Well-Beloved. Your spirits would be so transported by His Word as to throw into commotion the Greater World—how much more this small and petty one!
(The Kitáb-i-Aqdas)
www.bahai.org/r/991129466

That's all? Like, prior to becoming a Baha'i, everyone first became a "true seeker'? Yeah, I don't think so. But it is similar to what a Christian was expected to do? You know, things like seek God with all your heart. And I believe that works... For both religions. And that's the problem the "true" seeker finds whatever truth they are looking into... whether the Baha'i Faith or any other religion or even some religious cult. And that's the other problem. They go all-in to what that religion teaches as true.

 

[CG Didymus]

And because we have a Messiah, Baha'u'llah, we can match up what actually happened as a result of His Coming with what the prophecies say. So unlike Jews and Christians we do not have to guess what the prophecies might mean since we know what they do mean.

You keep doing it. Okay, so you don't have to guess... so tell me, what do the prophecies mean? What does it say about who the Messiah is and what he will do?

And two hundred post later, after going round and round, you'll probably say again, "Well prophecies really don't prove anything, because anybody can make them say whatever they want." Yes, they can... even Baha'is.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, it would have been a miracle if it happened and personally I have no problem with it because I know that Jesus did miracles.

Question.—It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible.

Answer.—The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.

Some Answered Questions, p. 100

22: MIRACLES

I like to entertain the possibility that God did some of the things in the Old Testament like parting the waters of the Red Sea. I never get tired of that movie and I cry every time I watch it.

So did Jesus walk on water and raise the dead? Did people come out of their graves in Jerusalem. Did Jesus come back to life? So yes? It is possible, because God can and does do miracles? Or, no... some of this stuff was made up, embellished stories. They didn't really happen? Or, Baha'is don't know?

 

[CG Didymus]

the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed,

What does the Baha'i Faith confess about "Immaculacy" of Mary? Other than saying they "confess" it?

 

[Trailblazer]

You keep doing it. Okay, so you don't have to guess... so tell me, what do the prophecies mean? What does it say about who the Messiah is and what he will do?

Which prophecies? There are hundreds.

And two hundred post later, after going round and round, you'll probably say again, "Well prophecies really don't prove anything, because anybody can make them say whatever they want." Yes, they can... even Baha'is.

They say what they say and Baha'u'llah did what they say. This is not complex math. You can twist what they say to mean something else or you can say they could mean something else, you can always say that, and then you will keep going round and round forever.

 

[CG Didymus]

You know I don't buy that Mr B was the return of the Messiah, right, so using that premise in an argument is not going to be convincing.

I always heard the Messiah was going to bring peace. Christians say, "Well, when he comes back, he'll bring peace." Baha'is say, "Well, someday, when the world puts the principles that Baha'u'llah brought, there will be peace." Right now, no peace.. so no Messiah. But, the good news, both predict terrible times before we get peace. So they both are dead on with that prediction... at least the first part of it.

 

[Trailblazer]

So did Jesus walk on water and raise the dead? Did people come out of their graves in Jerusalem. Did Jesus come back to life? So yes? It is possible, because God can and does do miracles? Or, no... some of this stuff was made up, embellished stories. They didn't really happen? Or, Baha'is don't know?

We don't know, nobody knows, but why would it matter? Jesus is still Jesus and those miracles do not make Jesus who He was.

“But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ…” Some Answered Questions, p. 101

 

[Trailblazer]

I always heard the Messiah was going to bring peace. Christians say, "Well, when he comes back, he'll bring peace." Baha'is say, "Well, someday, when the world puts the principles that Baha'u'llah brought, there will be peace." Right now, no peace.. so no Messiah.

Sorry to say, but there are no prophecies that say it will be the Messiah who actually 'establishes' peace on earth. Rather, the prophecies say that peace will be established and that will happen during the messianic age.

 

[Trailblazer]

What does the Baha'i Faith confess about "Immaculacy" of Mary? Other than saying they "confess" it?

I don't really know.

 

[CG Didymus]

A new World Order in fact.

Regards Tony

Nine elected Baha'is are really going to be able to run a world government? I don't think so. What other governmental offices and departments are going to be needed? Whose going to run them? Elected or appointed people? And, I always ask, who's going to enforce the laws?

 

[CG Didymus]

Which prophecies? There are hundreds.

Sorry to say, but there are no prophecies that say it will be the Messiah who actually 'establishes' peace on earth. Rather, the prophecies say that peace will be established and that will happen during the messianic age.

Okay those prophecies. And the ones that say what the Messiah will do? They might all be the same prophecies.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm sure every religion, every sect of every religion and even every religious cult has their "inspirational" stories and books. So, unfortunately, it proves nothing.

To me it proves everything is possible.

What it proves to me is, that even the best Biblical and Quran scholars, can and did see that the Message Baha'u'llah gave was compatible and consistent with, and fulfilled the Faith they were exponents of. That them embracing the Message of Baha'u'llah enabled them to still remain lovers of the Light no matter where is shines from.

As such when they embraced Baha'u'llah, they embraced Jesus, Muhammad and all the Mesengers while still being loyal in faith, to the faith they previously held.

If a person chooses not to pursue, that is their choice, but I would offer they would be asking empty questions, that is, if they ask for answers but do not listen to, or pursue a reply. It may be they want to ask, and do want to know, but they are really afraid the answer would mean drastic change in lifestyle, or having to contemplate years of lost time.

They are indeed some of the issues one faces, I know, as I have been there and taken that journey.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't really know.

Yeah, I asked this years ago, because Catholics have a belief that Mary had an "Immaculate" conception, since they believe sin is inherited, they didn't want her to have been "tainted" by her mom and her dad to have had sex to conceive her.

 

[CG Didymus]

To me it proves everything is possible.

What it proves to me is, that even the best Biblical and Quran scholars, can and did see that the Message Baha'u'llah gave was compatible and consistent with, and fulfilled the Faith they were exponents of. That them embracing the Message of Baha'u'llah enabled them to still remain lovers of the Light no matter where is shines from.

As such when they embraced Baha'u'llah, they embraced Jesus, Muhammad and all the Mesengers while still being loyal in faith, to the faith they previously held.

If a person chooses not to pursue, that is their choice, but I would offer they would be asking empty questions, that is, if they ask for answers but do not listen to, or pursue a reply. It may be they want to ask, and do want to know, but they are really afraid the answer would mean drastic change in lifestyle, or having to contemplate years of lost time.

They are indeed some of the issues one faces, I know, as I have been there and taken that journey.

Regards Tony

All of that is fine. They've accepted what the Baha'i Faith says. So I'm sure they "feel" the power and the light and all that. But, so do those that believe the born again Christians. But what they are being taught is absolutely contradictory to what the person that is being taught by the Baha'is. They each feel God love, but they are believing very different things about God.

 

[CG Didymus]

We don't know, nobody knows, but why would it matter? Jesus is still Jesus and those miracles do not make Jesus who He was.

No, it does matter. Again and again, born again Christians... Do you believe what they say about Jesus? No. Do they agree with what Baha'is say about Jesus? No.

It matters. Two religious beliefs saying something different. They both can't be right. The Christians say they "know" the miracles happened? Some go to the extreme of believing that everything in the Bible must be taken literally. That matters.

If they are wrong it matters. They are spreading their wrong beliefs as the God's honest truth. If they are right, then Jesus is coming soon, and he's going to be sending all those that don't believe in their Jesus to hell. As unlikely as that is, if it's true, that matters.