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Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
These vague prophecies are not very useful. There have always been wars and rumors of wars. There were before Baha'u'llah and after.

The prophecy does not say that there would be no more wars or rumors of wars after Christ returned.
Well if we're not going to go by what the Bible says then fine. But what could it mean if there are still wars and rumors of wars other then... it is not yet the end? Since we know the gospel writers wrote this long after, and could easily have put the words into Jesus' mouth... Why don't we just call the gospels a bunch of hooey? Including the supposed "virgin" birth... and the resurrection?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
That tension is unfortunate and is caused by those criticizing. That's the whole point of not criticizing publicly.
No, the tension is there. It's left over from how people used to be. Theoretically, Baha'is should be moving away from that. But, in the mean time, Baha'is are not perfect. And that includes those that get into positions of power and authority. Maybe they are right or maybe they don't want people coming into the Faith and rocking the boat. And they could have good reasons for that, and they could also have selfish reasons for that. Anyway, I'm going to read the whole article and see if there are places where I think the writer went too far.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
What I understand is that the meaning of the resurrection is allegorical, but how much of the resurrection story is allegorical? It could be a mixture of both. Personally I don't think Christ saying He had physical bones and the like was allegorical, it was a mistaken transmission of the story. The flying up to heaven by Jesus in the beginning of Acts looks allegorical to me.
But in Acts in also says that Jesus showed himself to be alive. As a religion that believes in Christianity and believes in the New Testament, I would think that Baha'is would be okay with everything it says. But, they aren't. Since I don't have to support any part of it, I'm okay with some of the things not being true. I don't need people coming out of their graves, God speaking from heaven, demons getting cast out of people, Jesus walking on water and rising from the dead. It all makes a great story. But a true, historically accurate story?

No. I'm fine with believing the writers embellished the story to make Jesus the miracle working God/man that Christianity made him into. But then, that makes the story fictional... or worse... a lie. Baha'is can't do that. They have to find a way to make some things true and others not true, but also, not a lie. Allegorical is one way Baha'is do it. The other is to say the followers added things in and misinterpret things and came up with false doctrines. But that, the "original" message was true.

But we don't know what that "original" message was. Or do we? Yes, Baha'is tell us what that original message was. What ever Baha'u'llah and the others say was true in the Bible and NT is true. Whatever they say was allegorical was not literally true. So then, that's where we are at... Why should we believe the Baha'i Faith is telling us the truth? What is the evidence? What is the proof? Threads like this go on forever and nothing gets resolved. Baha'is take it on "faith". And once they do, what ever the Baha'i Faith says, is the truth.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I would offer that Susan has very much verified her Faith with the available data and logic.

I personally have used much the same methods to verify the Faith I also embraced.

That may not be how you would choose to verify a point of interest, but it is the way a Messenger of God asks us to verify what they offer.

Regards Tony
You know similar to what James says that he'll show his faith by his works. That is a person says the have faith but doesn't have the works, that faith is dead.

Baha'is have a similar thing to where they say let deeds not words be your adorning. Unfortunately, here on the forum all we see is each others words But we can see a person's attitude. How friendly... How understanding... How respectful they are. And the good news is most all Baha'is are getting better at it. 'Cause even if we don't believe in your words, at least we will see what a nice guy you are. So keep it up Tony. You're moving in the right direction.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
As @CG Didymus said, even if Jesus did rise from the dead, that would not change who Baha'is believe Baha'ullah was or what the Baha'i Faith teaches.
Then why not just say that the Baha'i position on the resurrection of Jesus is that you don't know? Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't That it doesn't matter to Baha'is. But that is not what Abdul Baha says, "The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body."
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
How do you know that Christians do not read the chapter in context?

Why would the virgin birth have to be allegorical and not literally true? What bothers you so much about it being literally true? Miracles do happen.
Ah, because they only use on verse and ignore the others. Again, if Jesus "fulfilled" this sign, then when he got old enough to know right from wrong which two kings that were threatening to attack Judah and King Ahaz died? The two kings died back in Isaiah's time. Plus, the problem with the Hebrew word being translated as "virgin". Isn't it important to check the original language sometimes and make sure it was translated correctly?
Matthew 1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).
Luke has a birth story, but he doesn't quote Isaiah. The two birth stories are very different. And that's it. No more talk of a virgin birth in the gospels and only the one verse quoted by Matthew.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Baha'is have a similar thing to where they say let deeds not words be your adorning. Unfortunately, here on the forum all we see is each others words But we can see a person's attitude. How friendly... How understanding... How respectful they are. And the good news is most all Baha'is are getting better at it. 'Cause even if we don't believe in your words, at least we will see what a nice guy you are

Life is a constant battle with self, words are hollow if not practiced.

Luckily there is a life outside the internet where we can practice what is offered. We all must find ways to put those words into action in our own families, with our friends and in our communities.

I hope you find your inner peace CG. I will offer though, I have found self always upsets that peace, but a great sense of purpose can be found. ;)

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I guess you never read about these events. They were not ordinary, they were unprecedented.
Some verses are obviously literal events, others are figurative. It's not that difficult to distinguish between the two.
And how many times have I asked how they can be used as a fulfillment of a prophecy for someone who is going to declare himself the forerunner to the promised one in Persia when they happened thousands of miles away and several years before? The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. The Dark Day, 1780. The Falling Stars, 1833.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But when a Baha'i article says there were errors in his book, then what are you going to do? Keep supporting it as if it is the "God's honest" truth?
Why would I believe an article written by Anonymous? I am sure there are other ways you can check Sears' book yourself if it is important to you. But even if Sears made some errors that does not mean he was wrong about the prophecies that were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah. These nit-picky things are really of little import, they are just a way that some people want to discredit Sears. Sears never claimed to be a Bible scholar, but he did his research and uncovered the truth, as any good investigator does.

If you really want to know if the prophecies were fulfilled you can figure that out by yourself by doing your own research.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Then why not just say that the Baha'i position on the resurrection of Jesus is that you don't know? Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't That it doesn't matter to Baha'is. But that is not what Abdul Baha says, "The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body."
The Baha'i position is not "we don't know" because of what Abdu'l-Baha said.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Ah, because they only use on verse and ignore the others. Again, if Jesus "fulfilled" this sign, then when he got old enough to know right from wrong which two kings that were threatening to attack Judah and King Ahaz died? The two kings died back in Isaiah's time. Plus, the problem with the Hebrew word being translated as "virgin". Isn't it important to check the original language sometimes and make sure it was translated correctly?
Matthew 1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).
Luke has a birth story, but he doesn't quote Isaiah. The two birth stories are very different. And that's it. No more talk of a virgin birth in the gospels and only the one verse quoted by Matthew.
Christians and Jews have been fighting over the virgin birth for years. On another forum I used to frequent there was a discussion that had over 30,000 posts between a Christian and a Jew and they argued about the virgin birth constantly. Even if it does translate to young woman in Hebrew, that young woman could have been a virgin, so the Jews lost that argument if they want to claim that Jesus was not a Prophet.

I don't really care what the Bible says because anything that Baha'u'llah wrote trumps the Bible, but I think the Bible supports what Baha'u'llah wrote, if interpreted properly. The Virgin Birth is an accepted Baha'i belief so if you ever became a Bahai you would have to get used to it.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Maybe they are right or maybe they don't want people coming into the Faith and rocking the boat.

The reason when intervention should be considered, does requires a deepened knowledge of the Covernant given by Baha'u'llah, the Will and Testaments of Abdu'lbaha and the explanations given by Shoghi Effendi.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
What is different about the Baha'i Faith is that we do not believe"we have it right and all the other religions have it wrong."

Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.

Yes, we believe we have it right and the reason the other religions have 'some things' wrong is because the older religions misinterpreted their scriptures and/or they became corrupted by the religious leaders over time, but you already know that we believe that.
So Baha'is don't believe the other religions have it wrong. But then you say that the other religions have some things wrong. And what are those "some" things? Ah, yes, what ever disagrees with what the Baha'i Faith believes.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And how many times have I asked how they can be used as a fulfillment of a prophecy for someone who is going to declare himself the forerunner to the promised one in Persia when they happened thousands of miles away and several years before? The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. The Dark Day, 1780. The Falling Stars, 1833.
Why would it matter where these events took place? This is what I mean by nit-picking. The Bible does not say where or when these events would take place, only that they would take place in the last days and BEFORE the coming of the Son of man.
Read the verses:

Acts 2:17-21 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Revelation 6:12-14 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.…

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:24-26”But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Jewish interpretation is biased because it is based upon what Jews want to be true, that Jesus was nobody. This is ludicrous and why only there are only 14.7 million Jews in the world and 2.5 billion Christians. The Jewish interpretation of the Old Testament is messed up because they are still waiting for the Messiah. They don't believe any of the prophecies are about the Messiah because they are still waiting for the Messiah that has already come, twice. They believe that the Messiah is coming just for them, to vindicate them and restore the Torah so they, the chosen people, can be the ones who are above all others in the world. Nothing could be more wrong. It is much more elitist than Christianity because at least Christians want everyone to be saved.
So Isaiah was written several hundred years before Jesus. Do you think they already had an interpretation of those verses? Do you think the "sign" given by Isaiah to King Ahaz was fulfilled? Did you read the Jewish interpretation I posted? What do you disagree with?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So Isaiah was written several hundred years before Jesus. Do you think they already had an interpretation of those verses? Do you think the "sign" given by Isaiah to King Ahaz was fulfilled? Did you read the Jewish interpretation I posted? What do you disagree with?
I really don't know because there is too much I w-don't know about the Bible, but I do know that Jesus was born of a Virgin and that is why the verse seems to be about Jesus. I cannot say about the rest of that Chapter and all the characters that appear in Jewish history as I don't know biblical history.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Why would it matter where these events took place? This is what I mean by nit-picking.
Okay, one thing... is Bill Sears infallible? Because he said these events were the very events that fulfilled these prophecies, so that means they are? Or, it's just his opinion?

Yeah, why be "nit-picky" just because these things happened on the other side of the world and decades before the event? So that's close enough? So there you go you got tangible, objective proof. Run it by the Atheists and see what they say now.
 
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