The more you read these passages, the more the events around the Bab and Baha'u'llah make more sense, not less.
The events around the Martyrdom of the Bab also reflects these passages in full.
Regards Tony
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Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.
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The more you read these passages, the more the events around the Bab and Baha'u'llah make more sense, not less.
The events around the Martyrdom of the Bab also reflects these passages in full.
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Okay.
No William Sears is not infallible, I am a William Sears guided Baha'i though. It was the book God Loves Laughter that inspire me and Thief in the Night amazed me.
One thing to consider though, many of the prophecy William Sears used was already put into circulation by previous Biblical Scholars.
George Townsend books are a must read, as Mr Townsend was a Christian Minister and wrote from that perspective.
George Townshend (Baháʼí) - Wikipedia
Christ and Baha'u'llah being a great read.
Regards Tony
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
I could just as easily say, "The Baha'i interpretation is biased because it is based upon what Baha'is want to be true."
You directly linked the ludicrousness of the belief to the number of people who believe it. Sure seems like argumentum ad populum to me.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
We agree. And if it did, it is a miracle.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Do you realize how cult-like this sounds?
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
It IS argumentum ad populum.
Except embracing that truth meant almost certain death in the early days and now in Muslim countries it still means facing a campaign of silencing the Baha'i.
Also it means a drastically different lifestyle than a current liberated anarchical mind is prone to desire.
So, how many want great change in their lives? I would offer look at this in a different way, because you have not reflected what it actually means to embrace a Truth, with Faith that it's is simply the right thing to do, no matter of the consequences.
Regards Tony
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
People being persecuted for their beliefs does not show that those beliefs are true.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
I don't know what in acts you are referring to. Jesus going up to heaven? If He was physical there, where would He go and stay alive? There is endless space up there.
Anyway, it's not what it says but what we each understand what it says. My friend Dale used to say in everything you read you are interpreting. You can't help it. The Bible says only how we interpret it. At times we rely on what we believe is infallible interpretation. But not much of the New Testament is interpreted infallibly in our view. It is up to each of us to interpret for ourselves, using what we call independent investigation of truth.
The first is the independent investigation of truth; for blind imitation of the past will stunt the mind. But once every soul inquireth into truth, society will be freed from the darkness of continually repeating the past.
(Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá)
www.bahai.org/r/721224234
Among these teachings was the independent investigation of reality so that the world of humanity may be saved from the darkness of imitation and attain to the truth; may tear off and cast away this ragged and outgrown garment of a thousand years ago and may put on the robe woven in the utmost purity and holiness in the loom of reality. As reality is one and cannot admit of multiplicity, therefore different opinions must ultimately become fused into one.
(Tablets to The Hague)
www.bahai.org/r/238114283
Use your own independent investigation.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
There is evidence that the Baha'i Faith is truth. But you have determine for yourself through independent investigation which involves by the way spiritual perception as well as reason. Here is what Baha'u'llah asked of us to be "true" seeker:
But, O my brother, when a true seeker determineth to take the step of search in the path leading to the knowledge of the Ancient of Days, he must, before all else, cleanse and purify his heart, which is the seat of the revelation of the inner mysteries of God, from the obscuring dust of all acquired knowledge, and the allusions of the embodiments of satanic fancy. He must purge his breast, which is the sanctuary of the abiding love of the Beloved, of every defilement, and sanctify his soul from all that pertaineth to water and clay, from all shadowy and ephemeral attachments. He must so cleanse his heart that no remnant of either love or hate may linger therein, lest that love blindly incline him to error, or that hate repel him away from the truth. Even as thou dost witness in this day how most of the people, because of such love and hate, are bereft of the immortal Face, have strayed far from the Embodiments of the divine mysteries, and, shepherdless, are roaming through the wilderness of oblivion and error. That seeker must at all times put his trust in God, must renounce the peoples of the earth, detach himself from the world of dust, and cleave unto Him Who is the Lord of Lords. He must never seek to exalt himself above anyone, must wash away from the tablet of his heart every trace of pride and vainglory, must cling unto patience and resignation, observe silence, and refrain from idle talk. For the tongue is a smoldering fire, and excess of speech a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the effects of the latter endure a century.
151 he shall enjoy the blessing conferred by the words: “In Our ways shall We assuredly guide him.”
(The Kitáb-i-Íqán)
www.bahai.org/r/477357906
I should hasten to add that if this seems impossible, in my opinion He is talking about a condition of true seeking that takes a person to the highest realm of recognizing Baha'u'llah. In a general way, though, the more we meet these conditions the better our chance of finding the truth.
Know ye from what heights your Lord, the All-Glorious, is calling? Think ye that ye have recognized the Pen wherewith your Lord, the Lord of all names, commandeth you? Nay, by My life! Did ye but know it, ye would renounce the world, and would hasten with your whole hearts to the presence of the Well-Beloved. Your spirits would be so transported by His Word as to throw into commotion the Greater World—how much more this small and petty one!
(The Kitáb-i-Aqdas)
www.bahai.org/r/991129466
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You could say that, but the hundred-dollar difference is that we have a Messiah who actually came and all the Jews and Christians have is a hope. And because we have a Messiah, Baha'u'llah, we can match up what actually happened as a result of His Coming with what the prophecies say. So unlike Jews and Christians we do not have to guess what the prophecies might mean since we know what they do mean.
What I was pointing out is the smallness of the Jewish faith and saying it is not likely to be the 'one true religion' given how small it is "compared to the larger religions such as Christianity and Islam." It is not likely to be the only one true religion, as Jews believe, since no loving God would single out a small handful of people as His chosen people and leave the rest of the world standing out in the cold. The primary reason Judaism is small compared to Christianity and Islam is because Jews rejected Jesus. Another reason is because it is an ethnic religion, not a universalizing religion, so Jews do not seek converts.
I ran across this website about Ethnic vs. Universalizing Religions several years ago. It explains the difference between these two kinds of religions. A universalizing religion looks for new members and welcomes anyone and everyone who wishes to adopt their belief system. Throughout history, some of these religions such as Christianity have attempted to convert people to their religion.
By contrast, ethnic religions consist of beliefs that were handed down from generation to generation within an ethnicity and culture and these religions do not try to convert others to their belief system. That is one reason Judaism is relatively small religion, with only about 14.7 million adherents after over 4000 years. Compare that with Christianity and Islam, who have 2.5 billion and 1.8 billion adherents, respectively.
The Baha’i Faith is not included on this website but it goes without saying that it is universalizing religion.
Ethnic vs. Universalizing Religions: AP Human Geography Crash Course
Universalizing Religions
First, let’s look at the definition of universalizing religion. Universalizing religions offer belief systems that are attractive to the universal population. They look for new members and welcome anyone and everyone who wishes to adopt their belief system. Universalizing religions have many diverse members, who come from different ethnic backgrounds, hence the term universal. Therefore, it is evident that universal religions consist of many different ethnic groups because they convert and accept anyone of any background and are usually not closely tied to one location.
Christianity
Christianity is the largest universalizing religion, both in area and in number, with about two billion adherents. Founded on the teachings of Jesus, Christianity is monotheistic, believing that God is a Trinity and Jesus Christ is the Son of God. The three main branches of Christianity are Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants. Roman Catholics are predominate in Southwest Europe and Latin America, Protestants in Northwest Europe and North America, and Orthodox in Eastern Europe. Eastern Orthodoxy is the largest single religious faith in Greece, Cyprus, and Russia.
Islam
Islam is the second largest universalizing religion with over 1.5 billion adherents. In Arabic, Islam means “submitting to the will of God”. Those who practice Islam are Muslims, which means one who surrenders to God. Islam begins with Abraham like Christianity and Judaism, but traces their story through Abraham’s second wife and son, Hagar and Ishmael, not Sarah and Isaac like the Christians and Jews. Their leader and prophet is Muhammad. The two branches of Islam are Sunni and Shiite. The division between the Sunni and Shia originated in a disagreement over leadership after Muhammad’s death in 632 CE. Islam is the predominant religion in the Middle East from North Africa to Central Asia. More than half of the world’s Muslims live in four countries outside the Middle East: Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and India.
Buddhism
Buddhism is the fourth largest religion, with about 350 million adherents. Buddhism was founded in Northern India by the first known Buddha, Siddhartha Gautama. The core Buddhist belief is reincarnation. In this concept, people are reborn after dying. One can attain Nirvana if one releases their attachment to desire and self. Today, Buddhism is a majority faith in Southeast Asia, China, and Japan.
Ethnic Religions
In contrast to universalizing religions, ethnic religions usually consist of beliefs, superstitions, and rituals handed down from generation to generation within an ethnicity and culture. It follows one’s ethnicity because the religion does not tend to convert. In some ways, ethnic religions act like a folk culture. It expands via relocation diffusion and often increases through birth rates. Ethnic religions relate closely to culture, ethnic heritage, and to the physical geography of a particular place. Ethnic religions do not attempt to appeal to all people, but only one group, maybe in one locale or within one ethnicity. Judaism and Hinduism are two prime examples of ethnic religions.
Hinduism
Hinduism is the largest ethnic religion and the world’s third largest religion with about 1 billion adherents. Hinduism existed before recorded history and had no specific founder. The origins of Hinduism in India are unclear; however, the oldest manuscripts date to 1500 BCE. Hinduism consists of many different religious groups evolved in India since 1500 BCE. Other religions are more centrally organized than Hinduism, and it is up to the individual to decide the best way to worship God. The principle of reincarnation is the cornerstone of Hinduism, and their doctrine closely mirrors India’s caste system. Almost all Hindus live in one country, India, but also are in Bangladesh, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, and Nepal.
Judaism
Judaism is an ethnic religion that has more than 14 million followers worldwide. There are 6 million Jews in Israel and 5 million in the United States. Two of the main universalizing religions, Christianity and Islam, find some of their roots in Judaism, recognizing Abraham as a Patriarch. Jews believe in one true God, and the Western Wall of the old temple in Jerusalem is one of their most holy sites. The three branches of Judaism are Orthodox, Conservatives, and Reformed. Judaism is distributed throughout part of the Middle East and North Africa, the United States, Russia, and Europe.
Ethnic vs. Universalizing Religions: AP® Human Geography Crash Course | Albert.io
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, it would have been a miracle if it happened and personally I have no problem with it because I know that Jesus did miracles.
Question.—It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible.
Answer.—The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.
Some Answered Questions, p. 100
22: MIRACLES
I like to entertain the possibility that God did some of the things in the Old Testament like parting the waters of the Red Sea. I never get tired of that movie and I cry every time I watch it.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I said: "The Virgin Birth is an accepted Baha'i belief so if you ever became a Baha'i you would have to get used to it."
It is the fallacy of jumping to conclusions to 'assume' that is cult-like because you do not understand why he would have to accept it if he became a Baha'i. In short, the Bahai Faith is not like a smorgasbord where we pick what we want to believe and leave the rest. Baha'is are expected to accept certain core beliefs. The Virgin Birth of Christ is one of those beliefs.
“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.”
The Promised Day is Come, p. 109
“Indeed, the essential prerequisites of admittance into the Bahá’í fold of Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, and the followers of other ancient faiths, as well as of agnostics and even atheists, is the wholehearted and unqualified acceptance by them all of the divine origin of both Islám and Christianity, of the Prophetic functions of both Muḥammad and Jesus Christ, of the legitimacy of the institution of the Imamate, and of the primacy of St. Peter, the Prince of the Apostles. Such are the central, the solid, the incontrovertible principles that constitute the bedrock of Bahá’í belief, which the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh is proud to acknowledge, which its teachers proclaim, which its apologists defend, which its literature disseminates, which its summer schools expound, and which the rank and file of its followers attest by both word and deed.” The Promised Day is Come, p. 110
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
You know I don't buy that Mr B was the return of the Messiah, right, so using that premise in an argument is not going to be convincing.
In other words, you think a religion needs to have a larger number of members before we can consider it valid. So that's an argument from popularity.
How many are needed before it does become likely?
Irrelevant cut and paste removed.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Of course I know that. Why do you think I was trying to be convincing? I was just replying to what you said and explaining my position.
No, not at all. the Baha'i Faith is a valid religion and it is about half the size of Judaism but it has only been around for about 170 years. Judaism is also a valid religion despite its small size. All religions that were revealed by God via a Messenger are valid religions.
Whether it is likely to be true is not a matter of how large the religion is. A religion that teaches that it is the one true religion is not likely to be teaching a true belief because that would mean all the other religions are false and that is an untenable belief. In my ever so biased opinion, the Baha'i Faith is the religion that God wants everyone to adhere to in this age because it validates all the revealed religions as the truth from God and leaves nobody out in the cold.
Living via the pure virtues taught by the foundation of all Faiths in love and unity, despite the consequences of a wayward generation, is indeed a proof to the truth that was offered. It was the purpose of those messages.
Regards Tony
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
And making some of those pesky claims you've said you don't make.
"...we have a Messiah who actually came..."
"...we can match up what actually happened..."
"...we do not have to guess what the prophecies might mean since we know what they do mean."
Then let me point out that the smallness of the Baha'i faith means it is not likely to be the 'one true religion' given how small it is "compared to the larger religions such as Christianity and Islam." It is not likely to be the only one true religion, as Baha'is believe, since no loving God would single out a small handful of people as His chosen people and leave the rest of the world standing out in the cold.
Yet you are perfectly happy to use how large a religion is to declare that it's false.
Why is it untenable? Why do you think it is impossible for some religious beliefs to just be wrong?
At least you can admit you are biased.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
This is rapidly descending into new-age mumbo jumbo.