Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[night912]

I did not ignore your point, I just had another point to make.

Not addressing someone's point and instead go and make another, does indeed qualify as ignoring someone's point.

 

[ratiocinator]

How else are we going to know if Baha'u'llah was telling the truth making His claims true?

Independent evidence - and if there is none, then there is no evidence. A person's character and the history of any faith they inspire or lead tells us NOTHING about the truth of their religious claims. The world is littered with religions, cults, and sects, that can't possibly all be true.

 

[Tiberius]

Personally I think it is a waste of time to pray for sick people. What is God going to do, reverse their illness? Baha'is always say to pray for someone who is sick but I always wonder why. It is almost as if they are robots doing what they were programmed to do. I only rarely pray for help with certain things but I leave it in the Hands of God as to what the result will be.

You've surprised me. You DISAGREE with a position the Baha'i faith holds?

 

[Tiberius]

I did not ignore your point, I just had another point to make.

Which was irrelevant to the discussion, so you were just wasting my time.

 

[Tiberius]

I have no idea what you are going on about but you have veered far from what the verse actually says.

What I've said has been quite clear.

Take the whole population. We shall call this "the group" since it is the group of all people.

Now, in "The Group," there are some people who have been to the places where the alleged prophecy said Mr B would go. This new group of "people who have been to the places where the alleged prophecy said Mr B would go" is made up of people from "The Group," but not everyone in "The Group" is a member of "people who have been to the places where the alleged prophecy said Mr B would go".

So, "people who have been to the places where the alleged prophecy said Mr B would go" is a subgroup of "The Group."

 

[Trailblazer]

Independent evidence - and if there is none, then there is no evidence. A person's character and the history of any faith they inspire or lead tells us NOTHING about the truth of their religious claims. The world is littered with religions, cults, and sects, that can't possibly all be true.

What do you mean by independent evidence?

 

[Trailblazer]

You've surprised me. You DISAGREE with a position the Baha'i faith holds?

It is not a position that the Baha'i Faith holds, it is just something that Baha'is do, a practice. Baha'is have many practices. I do not have to agree with all the practices of the Baha'is in order to believe in Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

Which was irrelevant to the discussion, so you were just wasting my time.

It was related to the discussion but you could have just ignored it if you wanted to.

 

[Trailblazer]

What I've said has been quite clear.

Take the whole population. We shall call this "the group" since it is the group of all people.

Now, in "The Group," there are some people who have been to the places where the alleged prophecy said Mr B would go. This new group of "people who have been to the places where the alleged prophecy said Mr B would go" is made up of people from "The Group," but not everyone in "The Group" is a member of "people who have been to the places where the alleged prophecy said Mr B would go".

So, "people who have been to the places where the alleged prophecy said Mr B would go" is a subgroup of "The Group."

The verse says nothing about a group of people going anywhere. It says "he" shall come to certain places.

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

 

[ratiocinator]

What is independent evidence?

Something objective that supports the view that your version of god is real and which would not be expected if it were not. A charismatic person with a 'good' character can found a religion while being mistaken, deluded, or whatever, so the character of a leader and the history of a religion is not something that can tell us that the claims of the religion are actually true.

If there were a precise and unlikely predictions that were fulfilled, that would be evidence but, like other supposed prophecies, they simply don't stand up to objective tests (as others here have been arguing*).

* I can't really be bothered with supposed prophecies because it takes a lot of time to look into them and they have always (in my experience) turned out to be spurious and easily explained. If there were a clear-cut and unambiguous example, we'd all know about it anyway.

 

[Trailblazer]

Something objective that supports the view that your version of god is real and which would not be expected if it were not.

What would that be?

 

[Tiberius]

It was related to the discussion but you could have just ignored it if you wanted to.

Then how about you actually address the point.

 

[ratiocinator]

What would that be?

It's you who said there was evidence. It really isn't up to me to specify or speculate as to what it might be, it's up to you to back up your claim.

 

[Tiberius]

The verse says nothing about a group of people going anywhere. It says "he" shall come to certain places.

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

Oh, for crying out loud.

It doesn't mean they all went as a group!

It just means any person who went to those places is counted in the subgroup.

You can create a subgroup with any criteria. Actors who have appeared on both Doctor Who and Star Trek. People who have lived in San Francisco. They are all subgroups of the main group "All People." The only difference is that the criteria we are using is what is spoken of in that passage. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. It is mastered by kids playing the game "Guess Who." I am astounded that you don't understand it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, that is not the reason. The reason is because all atheists will say they fail, just because they fail to prove something to them... Been there, done that.

I do not know how many dozens of times I have said that fulfilled or prophecies and predictions Baha'u'llah made are not the evidence of who He was. That is no test at all. I looked at the evidence that demonstrated the truth of Baha'u'llah's claims. The following is the reliable evidence whether you consider it reliable evidence or not.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with 106 the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:

God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote can be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

Nope, that is merely circular reasoning. You won't get anywhere using that. It only convinces fellow drinkers of the same Kool Aid.

Just because it feels good does not make it evidence.

 

[joelr]

I myself in my community find prayers for healing have little affect on those who sick, as far I can tell. However, for me prayer is for a connection with God that has an effect on me spiritually at times. I feel that connection, I feel alive, not dead. I theorize that the effect of our prayers on sick people depends on our own spirituality and our connection with the person we are praying for. In my community, most of the people who pray for others have little connection with most of the people they are praying for. The number of people prayed for are piled on as a group. How can this have any effect? I ask Baha'is here as well as you. How about it @Trailblazer? how about it @TransmutingSoul?

Yes and my ex who was in Islam and another in Hinduism both knew that through their personal relationship they were following the correct religion and others were completely wrong. Lord Krishna was always there giving spiritual support and speaking through feelings and emotions. I've known people who say the same about Seth the entity Jane Roberts channeled. It's a fact that beliefs in a higher power will create these feelings. You could do it with Thor or Superman. It's part of human psychology. I have done it myself with beliefs I once had and even with things I knew were not real.
It's definitely not evidence for anything outside of our minds.

Studies have been done on prayer and sick people, the results were not good.

But you can just look at mortality rates of illness. If a disease kills 45% of all people who have it in the US, and you sample a high enough group it will always be what statistics predicts. Unless an advance in medical science happens. Always. So that means that no one extra is being saved by any outside means. Unless you postulate that the disease really kills 55% and the other 10% is healed a deity. Which is absurd, as if a God is like "oh, I can't save anyone else I just hit my 10% quota on this illness"?
If prayer worked you would see the data skewed radically in one religion. Unfortunately things are playing out by probability. This is studied very closely in every field.

 

[samtonga43]

The existence of false messengers of God does not prove that there are no true Messengers of God.

Yes, I think we are all well aware of this. I did not suggest otherwise.

Of course many people claim to be Messengers of God, or even God Himself, but that does not mean that a true Messenger of God would not also claim that. Of course He would claim that because He would want people to know who He was and what His message was.

Again, you miss my point.

It is the fallacy of hasty generalization to say that just because many people falsely claim to be Messengers of God, therefore there have never been any true Messengers of God.

Strawman. It would only be a hasty generalization if I had hastily generalized. Logic 101.

Unless you can prove that Baha'u'llah was not a Messenger of God it is just your personal opinion that He was not a Messenger of God. You have a right to your personal opinion just as I have a right to have my belief.

My belief, having read some of his writings, and continuing to do so, is that he is not a 'Messenger of God'. Thank you for acknowledging that I have a right to this belief.

When you can prove that Jesus is not the Second Person of the Trinity, I will prove that Mr B. is not a 'Messenger of God'.

 

[samtonga43]

The following is the reliable evidence whether you consider it reliable evidence or not.

You omitted 'for me' after the first 'evidence'.

 

[samtonga43]

Personally I think it is a waste of time to pray for sick people. What is God going to do, reverse their illness?

Healing is not about 'reversing an illness'.

This is a naive and shallow way to approach the subject. To be healed is to be made whole.

I have known many people who have been made whole while they were dying.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have said that fulfilled or prophecies and predictions Baha'u'llah made are not the evidence of who He was.

If 1000 years ago someone said that two big buildings would get hit by flying machines that would be something. But prophecies, or things made into prophecies, are usually too vague. But the predictions made by Baha'u'llah would be something to hear.