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Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
If all the different religious faiths get pretty much the same result (and that same result is no better than random chance), then it shows that no religion gets any benefit from prayer. This is exactly what we'd expect to see if religion wasn't true.
In the NT it is implied that followers of Jesus would have the power to heal. We've all seen how TV evangelists/faith healers have faked it. Some of them have said that the healings have been verified... Things like cancerous tumors gone. But if that was true, why are they working at hospitals healing people? So it only happens occasionally? Is it about the same as the amount of people that got healed after praying to a toaster?

I do believe that the person that prays does get a feeling, a connection, with that concept of the divine that they are praying to. But since there's so many different concepts of that divine spiritual thing, that is it just in there mind? But it does give them a positive attitude... like for some Christians, "I know God will help me out of this mess I'm in." Or, "I know my Mom will get better." If a check comes in the mail or their Mother gets better then they say, "Thank you Jesus. I knew you would be there for me." If not, then they say, "Oh well, it's your will that I get evicted from my apartment and that my Mom died. At least she gets to go home and be with you."
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Independent evidence - and if there is none, then there is no evidence. A person's character and the history of any faith they inspire or lead tells us NOTHING about the truth of their religious claims. The world is littered with religions, cults, and sects, that can't possibly all be true.
And how many people follow some cult leader because they were nice, loving people? Then they said and did a lot of good things. Then wrote a book on how you too can become a nice, loving person.

But the claims of the man who took the title, Baha'u'llah, meaning The Glory of God, said that he is the promised one of all the other religions. That he knows how to fix the world of all its problem and bring all people together in peace and harmony. Okay, his followers and those that met him thought he was a good, spiritual guy. He lived a good, Holy life. Then wrote a bunch of stuff. That is what's important. Is what he said believable? Will the things he says for people to do lead to a united, peaceful world? We can check those and see for ourselves. Some people believe enough to join the religion. Others are so sure his ideas will work.

But the claim is that these things came from God. Is that believable? And the problem with that is that those who have committed themselves to believe him, then have to believe, at least in words, that they believe everything he said... Since, after all, it came directly from God. So right there is a major obstacle for even listening or reading what the guy says... He's claiming God sent him. So people ask, "Prove it. What's your evidence?" And, as we've seen, there is none... Only a faith-based belief. We never seem to get to, "Well, what's his plan? How is the Baha'i Faith going to fix things?"
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I myself in my community find prayers for healing have little affect on those who sick, as far I can tell. However, for me prayer is for a connection with God that has an effect on me spiritually at times. I feel that connection, I feel alive, not dead.
I do think there is a spiritual power that some people can tap into... that maybe being a pure channel for that energy is part of it. But, every religious group I've been around, again, is basing their beliefs about this spiritual power, or God, very differently. Like those Christians, especially the Pentecostals, are believing God is a trinity. Baha'is think that is a false believe, yet it works for them. They "feel" the power of God working through them. And, of course, some of them fake and abuse that power.

For a Baha'i then, do you think that it could be that the purer the person, the more spiritual energy flows through them and the prayer has more of an effect?

Then the other question would be, since people believing most anything, maybe even toasters, can tap into some sort of spiritual energy, does it matter what the beliefs is, or is it more in the beliefs and faith that person has that the power is there and is real and opens themselves up to that power?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I think you get my point. I look at all of these versions and none of them say "he". The King James Bible is unique in this.
And even the New King James has "they". "In that day they shall come to you From Assyria..." So how reliable is the KJV? And why would so many of the other translations have "They" instead of "He"?

12 In that day they will come to you,
from Assyria and the cities of Egypt,
and from Egypt to the River,
from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain.
Also, a lot of translation don't have the "fortified cities" which is used as prophesying that Baha'u'llah would be taken to Constantinople and whatever other place he was taken along the way. But this translation, and others go from Assyria to Egypt. Then from Egypt to a river... not a "fortress" to a river. So the whole fulfilled prophecy is totally dependent on one translation. And who knows what the Hebrew means. But we could find out.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The verse says nothing about a group of people going anywhere. It says "he" shall come to certain places.

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
Your "fulfillment" is also dependent on Baha'u'llah doing this in the right order? And what was that order? I didn't see an exact order in what I read... just that he went from one place to another. From that place to Akka. From there to a place by a river. But then the sea to sea and mountain to mountain have already happened. So are you sure you think that the prophecy has the exact order? Then, naturally, some of the other translations don't even have the "fortified cities", but, instead, they have Egypt. But to do it right, I don't think you can claim this as a prophecy without the "fortified cities". But then can you claim it with the mentioning of Egypt? So, I don't think it is very exact, just kind of general and in the ballpark.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Your "fulfillment" is also dependent on Baha'u'llah doing this in the right order? And what was that order? I didn't see an exact order in what I read... just that he went from one place to another. From that place to Akka. From there to a place by a river. But then the sea to sea and mountain to mountain have already happened. So are you sure you think that the prophecy has the exact order? Then, naturally, some of the other translations don't even have the "fortified cities", but, instead, they have Egypt. But to do it right, I don't think you can claim this as a prophecy without the "fortified cities". But then can you claim it with the mentioning of Egypt? So, I don't think it is very exact, just kind of general and in the ballpark.
Unfortunately this is common in religious beliefs. Those that believe tend to count only the hits and ignore the misses. This prophecy not only fails because ones that have been "fulfilled" could have been fulfilled by many different people at times, as in this extremely vague "prophecy". One has no valid reason to say that to all of the people that fulfilled it her specific leader was the one. When it was as likely to be Elvish as Bahaullah then it is clearly a failed prophecy.

It is why I try to ask them if they can develop a proper test. A proper test would have a possible result that could lead to a refutation. Others cannot create that test for them because others do not fully know that person's beliefs. But we see here that just as with creationists many theists do not want to know. They are merely looking for excuses to believe and a failed prophecy is good enough for many of them.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It's you who said there was evidence. It really isn't up to me to specify or speculate as to what it might be, it's up to you to back up your claim.
I already did, when I posted the evidence.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It just means any person who went to those places is counted in the subgroup.
There was no subgroup, there was just one man. That is why the verse says "he."

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Just because it feels good does not make it evidence.
Who said that it feels good? I already told you it does not feel good so I won't go over that again.
Evidence does not feel good or bad, evidence is just evidence.

Just because evidence does not prove anything to you that does not mean it is not evidence. I suggest you brush up on the definition of evidence.

Evidence: anything that helps to prove that something is or is not true: EVIDENCE | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened. ‘

Evidence is gathered whenever a crime has been committed and then that evidence is presented to a jury. When all the evidence is presented to a jury everyone on the jury will not necessarily agree that the evidence indicates the man is guilty, but the evidence is still evidence nevertheless.

Likewise, whenever a Messenger of God appears on earth, His character, the history of His life and mission from God, and what He wrote is ALL evidence. Not everyone will believe that indicates that He was a Messenger of God, but it is still evidence.

Who is responsible to provide evidence? The prosecutor is responsible to provide evidence if he is claiming that the defendant is guilty of a crime. The Messenger of God is responsible to provide evidence if He is claiming that He is a Messenger of God. Baha'u'llah provided evidence to back up His claims and I have posted that evidence on this forum umpteen million times.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Who said that it feels good? I already told you it does not feel good so I won't go over that again.
Evidence does not feel good or bad, evidence is just evidence.

Just because evidence does not prove anything to you that does not mean it is not evidence. I suggest you brush up on the definition of evidence.

Evidence: anything that helps to prove that something is or is not true: EVIDENCE | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened. ‘

Evidence is gathered whenever a crime has been committed and then that evidence is presented to a jury. When all the evidence is presented to a jury everyone on the jury will not necessarily agree that the evidence indicates the man is guilty, but the evidence is still evidence nevertheless.

Likewise, whenever a Messenger of God appears on earth, His character, the history of His life and mission from God, and what He wrote is ALL evidence. Not everyone will believe that indicates that He was a Messenger of God, but it is still evidence.

Who is responsible to provide evidence? The prosecutor is responsible to provide evidence if he is claiming that the defendant is guilty of a crime. The Messenger of God is responsible to provide evidence if He is claiming that He is a Messenger of God. Baha'u'llah provided evidence to back up His claims and I have posted that evidence on this forum umpteen million times.

We were talking about reliable evidence. And the examples that you provided failed for the reasons given. There are all sorts of grades of evidence. Some of it you can say, "Yes, it is evidence, so what?" That is what you have been providing. It will never get one to the point of rational belief.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If 1000 years ago someone said that two big buildings would get hit by flying machines that would be something. But prophecies, or things made into prophecies, are usually too vague. But the predictions made by Baha'u'llah would be something to hear.
I have posted this before but maybe not to you.

Baha’u’llah predicted many things that later came to pass. In this book, which can be read online, is a list of 30 specific things Baha’u’llah predicted that later came to pass: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

Chapter 4

BAHA'I PROPHECIES: HISTORICAL EVENTS

A tempest, unprecedented in its violence, unpredictable in its course, catastrophic in its immediate effects, unimaginably glorious in its ultimate consequences, is at present sweeping the face of the earth... The powerful operations of this titanic upheaval are comprehensible to none except such as have recognized the claims of both Baha'u'llah and the Bab.

- Shoghi Effendi

The word 'prediction' means one thing in science, another in religion. When we study religion scientifically, it is important to distinguish between these meanings. In science, a prediction is any testable inference we draw from a hypothesis or theory. It may equally well describe a future event, a past observation or an ongoing process. In religion, a prediction generally is a prophecy - a glimpse of the future disclosed through the words of a prophet. Although the scientific and religious meanings may sometimes overlap, they are not identical.

Bearing this distinction in mind, let us consider a scientific prediction (testable inference from a hypothesis) involving religious predictions (prophecies): if Baha'u'llah truly was a Manifestation of God, then He should have been, able to foretell coming events. To someone omniscient at will and free from all error, the future must be an open book.

This practical consequence of the revelation-claim of Baha'u'llah is something we can test on the basis of observation, reason, intuition and credible authority. As with any good scientific deduction, we can search for evidence to disprove it. 'When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, ' says the Old Testament, 'if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken... '53 Note how completely this approach agrees with modern scientific method: the Bible does not suggest that a single correct prophecy (or even several such) would constitute 'proof of a Manifestation's claim. All it says is that a demonstrable inability to make such prophecies would discredit that claim. The obvious corollary, however, is that if someone claiming divine inspiration makes a great many specific, seemingly improbable, testable prophecies - prophecies whose non-fulfilment would undermine our confidence - and they invariably come true, then we can hardly fail to be impressed. Two equally reasonable people may differ as to how much any given prophecy bolsters such a claim or how many 'hits' should be required to sustain a positive verdict. At some point, however, We might well find it more reasonable to accept that claim than to go on reserving judgement.

Baha'u'llah Himself writes:

We have laid bare the divine mysteries and in most explicit language foretold future events, that neither the doubts of the faithless, nor the denials of the froward, nor the whisperings of the heedless may keep back the seekers after truth from the Source of the light of the One true God. 54

... most of the things which have come to pass on this earth have been announced and prophesied by the Most Sublime Pen... All that hath been sent down hath and will come to pass, word for word, upon earth. No possibility is left for anyone either to turn aside or protest. 55

An impartial examination of such prophecies, in the light of subsequent events, will either confirm or falsify these assertions. This, then, is a good place to begin our investigation.

In considering Baha'u'llah's prophecies I shall, in a few instances, refer also to statements by the Bab and 'Abdu'l-Baha The Bab claimed to be not only the Herald of Baha'u'llah but a Manifestation in His own right - a claim fully endorsed by Baha'u'llah. Although 'Abdu'l-Baha is not considered a Manifestation, He was designated by Baha'u'llah as the unerring, divinely-guided Interpreter of the Faith, and beyond that as one whose words are as authoritative and as binding upon believers as Baha'u'llah's own. All authenticated statements of these three Central Figures therefore constitute Baha'i scripture, and their prophecies all are invested with Baha'u'llah's authority. *

*To put it another way, Baha'u'llah predicted (at least by implication) that the prophecies of the Bab and 'Abdu'l-Baha would prove as reliable as His own.

What are the developments that have, in the words of Baha'u'llah, 'come to pass on this earth' after being 'announced and prophesied by the Most Sublime Pen'? Those of which I am aware, and which I discuss in the following pages, include:

1. The fall from power of the French Emperor Napoleon III and the consequent loss of his empire.

2. The defeat of Germany in two bloody wars, resulting in the 'lamentations of Berlin'.

3. The success and stability of Queen Victoria's reign.

4. The dismissal of 'All Pasha as prime minister of Turkey.

5. The overthrow and murder of Sultan 'Abdu'l-'Aziz of Turkey.

6. The breakup of the Ottoman Empire, leading to the extinction of the 'outward splendour' of its capital, Constantinople.

7. The downfall of Nasiri'd-Din Shah, the Persian monarch.

8. The advent of constitutional government in Persia.

9. A massive (albeit temporary) decline in the fortunes of monarchy throughout the world.

10. A worldwide erosion of ecclesiastical authority.

11. The collapse of the Muslim Caliphate.

12. The spread of communism, the 'Movement of the Left', and its rise to world power.

13. The catastrophic decline of that same movement, triggered by the collapse of its egalitarian economy.

14. The rise of Israel as a Jewish homeland.

15. The persecution of Jews on the European continent (the Nazi holocaust).

16. America's violent racial struggles.

17. Baha'u'llah's release from the prison of 'Akka and the pitching of His tent on Mount Carmel.

18. The seizure and desecration of Baha'u'llah's House in Baghdad.

19. The failure of all attempts to create schism within the Baha'i Faith.

20. The explosive acceleration of scientific and technological progress.

21. The development of nuclear weapons.

22. The achievement of transmutation of elements, the age-old alchemist's dream.

23. Dire peril for all humanity as a result of that achievement.

24. The discovery that complex elements evolve in nature from simpler ones.

25. The recognition of planets as a necessary byproduct of star formation.

26. Space travel.

27. The realization that some forms of cancer are communicable.

28. Failure to find evidence for a 'missing link' between man and ape.

29. The non-existence of a mechanical ether (the supposed light-carrying substance posited by classical physics), and its redefinition as an abstract reality.

30. The breakdown of mechanical models (literal images) as a basis for understanding the physical world.

I will review each of these prophecies, describing when and how each was made and fulfilled. First, however, let us briefly consider their common historical setting.

To continue reading: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah, PROOFS OF THE BAHA'I REVELATION, pp. 35-40
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I do believe that the person that prays does get a feeling, a connection, with that concept of the divine that they are praying to. But since there's so many different concepts of that divine spiritual thing, that is it just in there mind? But it does give them a positive attitude... like for some Christians, "I know God will help me out of this mess I'm in." Or, "I know my Mom will get better." If a check comes in the mail or their Mother gets better then they say, "Thank you Jesus. I knew you would be there for me." If not, then they say, "Oh well, it's your will that I get evicted from my apartment and that my Mom died. At least she gets to go home and be with you."
It might just be in their mind that God answered their prayers, or maybe God really did answer their prayers. There really is no way to prove such a thing.

I often write posts I plan to post and post them later. I had a thread I was going to post about prayers I was saying and how I believe they were answered but given I can never get caught up on posts on the threads I am now on, I never posted that thread. It is called "I put it in the hands of God." Since I rarely pray and when I do I do not pray for anything in particular, this was a notable exception. Well, you will see it if I ever post it.

I am noted for going around the house saying "Help me Jesus, help me God" because I really do believe that God and Jesus hear everything we say when we call out. I believe that God helps us even if we do not cry out but I have heard from others, namely Christians, that the success rate is a lot higher when we cry out. I believe that is because God wants us to rely upon Him.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Your "fulfillment" is also dependent on Baha'u'llah doing this in the right order? And what was that order? I didn't see an exact order in what I read... just that he went from one place to another. From that place to Akka. From there to a place by a river. But then the sea to sea and mountain to mountain have already happened. So are you sure you think that the prophecy has the exact order?
The word "and" implies it will happen in an order.

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.

and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.

The Governor of the city refused many times to fulfill the orders that he received to banish Him again. Finally forced to follow orders, Baha’u’llah was banished again to the fortified city of Adrianople. He was honored and praised, and shown respect everywhere, until He was finally sent to the most horrific of all places, the fortress of Akka, where it was expected that He would succumb to the terrible conditions.

and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.

and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.

and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.

The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith.

From: William Sears, Thief in the Night

Please note that Baha’u’llah had no control over His own destiny for the last 40 years of His Life after He declared His mission because He was deemed a prisoner of the government He was banished and exiled from place to place.

Map of Baháʼu'lláh's banishments

Map_iran_ottoman_empire_banishment.png
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
We were talking about reliable evidence. And the examples that you provided failed for the reasons given. There are all sorts of grades of evidence. Some of it you can say, "Yes, it is evidence, so what?" That is what you have been providing. It will never get one to the point of rational belief.
reliable
consistently good in quality or performance; able to be trusted. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=reliable+means

There is no such thing as reliable evidence because what is reliable to one person will not necessarily be reliable to another person. For me, the evidence for Baha'u'llah is consistently good in quality or performance; able to be trusted, but it will not be viewed that way by everyone who looks at it because people are looking at the evidence from their own perspective and thus people interpret the same evidence differently.

The same applies to what is a rational belief. There is no such thing as a rational belief because what is rational to one person will not be rational to another person. When you say a belief is not rational that is simply a value judgment because 'you believe' that their beliefs are irrational. This is thus all a matter of personal opinion.

Case in point: I believe that belief in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ is irrational but that is just my personal opinion. That belief is not irrational to most Christians for their own personal reasons so it is not right for me to tell them their belief is irrational.

What is so difficult to understand about that? Atheists claim they are so rational and logical yet they cannot even understand something this simple. :confused:
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
reliable
consistently good in quality or performance; able to be trusted. reliable means - Google Search

There is no such thing as reliable evidence because what is reliable to one person will not necessarily be reliable to another person. For me, the evidence for Baha'u'llah is consistently good in quality or performance; able to be trusted, but it will not be viewed that way by everyone who looks at it because people are looking at the evidence from their own perspective and thus people interpret the same evidence differently.

The same applies to what is a rational belief. There is no such thing as a rational belief because what is rational to one person will not be rational to another person. When you say a belief is not rational that is simply a value judgment because 'you believe' that their beliefs are irrational. This is thus all a matter of personal opinion.

Case in point: I believe that belief in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ is irrational but that is just my personal opinion. That belief is not irrational to most Christians for their own personal reasons so it is not right for me to tell them their belief is irrational.

What is so difficult to understand about that? Atheists claim they are so rational and logical yet they cannot even understand something this simple. :confused:
Sure there is reliable evidence. It is a bad sign when someone denies this. If a person can reason rationally there is evidence that one has to accept as supporting a claim. Yours really does not. You are using ad hoc explanations.

In the sciences there is scientific evidence. The only way that a person can deny scientific evidence is to be either a liar or rather ignorant of the topic being discussed. The rules for it are rather simple and one only needs to answer to questions to determine if it is scientific evidence or not.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Sure there is reliable evidence. It is a bad sign when someone denies this. If a person can reason rationally there is evidence that one has to accept as supporting a claim. Yours really does not. You are using ad hoc explanations.
Sure there is reliable evidence that supports the claims of Baha'u'llah. It is unfortunate for people who they deny this.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
In the NT it is implied that followers of Jesus would have the power to heal. We've all seen how TV evangelists/faith healers have faked it. Some of them have said that the healings have been verified... Things like cancerous tumors gone. But if that was true, why are they working at hospitals healing people? So it only happens occasionally? Is it about the same as the amount of people that got healed after praying to a toaster?

I do believe that the person that prays does get a feeling, a connection, with that concept of the divine that they are praying to. But since there's so many different concepts of that divine spiritual thing, that is it just in there mind? But it does give them a positive attitude... like for some Christians, "I know God will help me out of this mess I'm in." Or, "I know my Mom will get better." If a check comes in the mail or their Mother gets better then they say, "Thank you Jesus. I knew you would be there for me." If not, then they say, "Oh well, it's your will that I get evicted from my apartment and that my Mom died. At least she gets to go home and be with you."

Not only does this show that prayer is no better than random chance, but it's also a case where a testable claim of a religious faith has been put to the test and failed.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
What is the point?

See, this is how this typical debate tactic works. Derail the conversation, hope that lots of time is wasted so that by the time everyone gets past the time wasting bits, no one can remember what the original topic was. That way, the believer can claim victory, but it's only because they tried to avoid the discussion altogether. Like I said, you're guilty of using the same tricks I've seen in pretty much every other debate between believers and atheists. So remember this the next time you cry, "You can't say all religious people are the same!" Because I've just pointed out how you've been using the same sneaky tricks that the others use, and it's not the first time either.

My point, which I made all the way back in post 2551, was that you can pray all you want and you can never be sure that what happens was a result of your prayer, because the results of prayer are no different to what we'd expect from random chance, and you'd get results just as effective if you prayed to your toaster.

But you decided that you'd rather waffle on for the next 500 or so posts about who these toaster-praying people actually were rather than actually try to discuss the claim that prayer is a complete waste of time and accomplishes nothing.
 
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