Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[samtonga43]

When you have to cite a logical fallacy all that shows is that you are too weak to rely upon your own words.

Oh, beautiful! Keep 'em coming!!

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe they are not but they will provide smoke and mirrors to answer that question.

Yes, every one of them that I've challenged with a Baha'i ends up having some kind of problem. A favorite was that one about "He" will come to you from Assyria. First, the Baha'i prophets came from Persia. TB found an ancient map that showed that at one time the Assyrian Empire went far enough East to include Persia. But, was Persian called "Assyria" or was it part of the Assyrian Empire but still called "Persia"? Then the only translation that has "He" will come to you was the KJV. All the the others had something different, and most had "They". Lots of them had "fortified cities", which the Baha'is say that meant Constantinople and Baghdad and Adrianople. But others went right to cities in Egypt. So there was no way to make the verse mean those cities where the Baha'i prophet had been sent to.

Then prophecies in Revelation that have something that can be changed to mean 1260 years was changed six times to mean that the start of those 1260 years began in 621AD and ended in 1844... 1260 lunar years in the Muslim calendar. Pretty profound. But, each event started at different times and ended at different times, so they couldn't have all started and ended at the same time. But a little blowing smoke and using a contorted mirror and they do work... at least for Baha'is.

 

[CG Didymus]

Likewise, whenever a Messenger of God appears on earth, His character, the history of His life and mission from God, and what He wrote is ALL evidence.

What people should be doing is searching for the truth whatever it is. That is actually a teaching of my religion.

Hey TB, I see you've been busy as usual. I've been gone to the mountains and I come back and you have a whole new thread that is going crazy, and you're still dealing with this one?

Anyway, going back to your post #3093, I'm going to look at some of those prophecies/predictions made by Baha'u'llah. But, I've got to ask you about these two things you said.

We don't have a true and reliable history of most all of the people that Baha'is say were manifestations. And, like I've said before, the ones we do have, on people like Adam, Noah, Abraham and even Moses, don't make them out to be perfect humans. Which kind of makes them very much like all other humans. And then you say "what he wrote"? All of them, plus Jesus, didn't write a thing. So we can't really check to see if every time a messenger of God appeared there was this stuff you call evidence.

And to most of us, it sounds like mythical legends of make believe people and their encounters with a mythical God. Things like Adam walking in the garden with God. God didn't flood the whole Earth and kill every living thing except those on the Ark. God parting the seas and turning his walking stick into a snake for Moses. Lots of people believe these stories about God are fictional, and maybe you do too. So what "proof" do we have from these supposed messengers of God? And when it comes down to it, you'd rather not even talk about any of that. Why is that? Because it is in the past? Because it is irrelevant? Or, because it isn't real. It's fiction. Fictional stories about a God and his people.

The next one... People should be "searching" for the truth. But your religion claims to be the truth. So how do people test that? You think people are going to read up on stories about his character and his mission and read what he wrote? All religions expect people to do the same kinds of things. So some of us have checked out some of the other religions. And what do we find?

Like with Christianity, we find that we have to believe the Bible is the infallible word of God. Then we have to believe someone' s interpretation of the things in the Bible. A typical interpretation of the evangelical/fundamental Christians is that we are all sinners and can't "save" our selves. We can't be good enough to pay the penalty for our sins. So, they say, we need Jesus. Some of us have given it a try. We tried to "believe". Believe in an invisible God that will send evil people to burn in hell. And "evil" people include people that don't have the correct beliefs about God and Jesus.

But, if we check out other religions, and even other Christian religions, we find out this stuff isn't necessarily true. People have come to distrust all religions, because they say things that must be just accepted without proof. But, there's another problem, people have "proven" all of them "true" to themselves. They believe. The things their religion tells them comes true, sort of, so they take that as "proof".

At least the Baha'i Faith has things actually written by their prophet. As least, they have a more verifiable history of his character and the things he went through. But still, the big question, is there a God, what is he like, what does he expect of people and did he send Baha'u'llah and the other messengers? How you going to prove an invisible, unknowable God? By what the messengers said about him? They all said different things. If people want to believe the Baha'is explanation as to why those other religions are so different, then great. But all they are doing is taking the word of someone who says they know the real truth. It might sound wonderful. It might sound like the truth and make perfect sense to you.

But why expect others to take that leap of faith? Why expect them to trust what the Baha'i Faith teaches? And by some things you've said, you don't. But it sounds like you do. You keep putting things out there that sound no different than some proselytizing Christian religion. You sound like you are trying to convince others that Baha'u'llah is a messenger of God. And that he says there is a God, so therefore God is real. And because God is real and Baha'u'llah is a messenger of God, all people should follow and believe everything he says. When Baha'is say "search" for the truth, they mean find that Baha'u'llah is the truth. Whether or not you think you are pushing this or not, that is exactly what it seems like you are doing.

 

[CG Didymus]

Oh, beautiful! Keep 'em coming!!

For someone who used to like the Baha'i Faith, I'm saddened that Baha'is do a better job at pushing people away, then drawing them in. How will the Baha'i Faith ever unite the world in peace and harmony? And, if it can't, then is it, or was it ever a true religion from God?

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus said: "I am the Way, the Truth and the LIfe".

Jesus said....

John's is the only one of the four not considered among the Synoptic Gospels (i.e., those presenting a common view). Although the Gospel is ostensibly written by St. John the Apostle, “the beloved disciple” of Jesus, there has been considerable discussion of the actual identity of the author.
Subjects: Jesus

Gospel According to John | Description, Authorship, & Facts
https://www.britannica.com › ... › Scriptures

People also ask
Who is the author of John 14?
Jesus speaks individually with Thomas, Philip and Judas (not the Iscariot). The author of the book containing this chapter is anonymous, but early Christian tradition uniformly believed that John composed this Gospel.

John 14 - Wikipedia

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I AM
‘Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am’” (John 8:58).
Are you as offended as the Jews were when Jesus said this?

Why is that offensive?

You will have to expand on what aspect of Jesus was the "I AM".

If flesh is "I AM", then are we all “I AM“?

Also if Jesus flesh body was 'I AM' why did the Jews persecute Jesus?

Maybe we can use this thought to why the Christians may be having difficulty in considering that Christ has already returned? Maybe that same veil of flesh is preventing us seeing Christ!

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

For someone who used to like the Baha'i Faith, I'm saddened that Baha'is do a better job at pushing people away, then drawing them in. How will the Baha'i Faith ever unite the world in peace and harmony? And, if it can't, then is it, or was it ever a true religion from God?

Why is it that Jesus Christ only had a few followers at the beginning?

Did Jesus, the early Disciples or early believers push them away, or was it peoples own choices in how they embraces that Message given by Christ from God?

CG, if you can do it better, stop complaining about our mistakes and take up you own cross, is not that what Jesus Christ asked you to do?

I wish you all the best, but your responses only add to the turmoil, we are asked to fix our own sleves, it is only fair to point that our since the Baha'i have become an easy target in your replies.

I offer that in justice, as we all make mistakes. Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

For someone who used to like the Baha'i Faith, I'm saddened that Baha'is do a better job at pushing people away, then drawing them in. How will the Baha'i Faith ever unite the world in peace and harmony? And, if it can't, then is it, or was it ever a true religion from God?

I see the best read for any Baha'i is all the press clippings from Abdu'lbaha's journeys to Europe and America and all the talks he Gave for Peace and Unity under One God.

All the press usually made the statement that no one has to change their religion.

Very interesting, but another topic.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Hey TB, I see you've been busy as usual. I've been gone to the mountains and I come back and you have a whole new thread that is going crazy, and you're still dealing with this one?

The mountains, lucky you. Is there snow up there?
Stupid me, I should have known better than to start a new thread. Now I am paying the price. Am I ever going to dig my way out? If I ever do, it will take days. Meanwhile I had another new thread I wanted to post but I probably won't until this one dies down.

But, I've got to ask you about these two things you said.

We don't have a true and reliable history of most all of the people that Baha'is say were manifestations. And, like I've said before, the ones we do have, on people like Adam, Noah, Abraham and even Moses, don't make them out to be perfect humans. Which kind of makes them very much like all other humans. And then you say "what he wrote"? All of them, plus Jesus, didn't write a thing. So we can't really check to see if every time a messenger of God appeared there was this stuff you call evidence.

No, not even Jesus wrote a thing, so John 14:6 is really a sham.

As I have said many times before, I don't think it matters what people like Adam, Noah, Abraham and even Moses were manifestations of God or Prophets. Baha'u'llah referred to them as Prophets, Baha'is can call them whatever they want to.

So what "proof" do we have from these supposed messengers of God? And when it comes down to it, you'd rather not even talk about any of that. Why is that? Because it is in the past? Because it is irrelevant? Or, because it isn't real. It's fiction. Fictional stories about a God and his people.

I don't want to talk about that because (a) it is in the past so I consider it irrelevant and (b) we cannot really ever know if it is fact or fiction.

The next one... People should be "searching" for the truth. But your religion claims to be the truth. So how do people test that? You think people are going to read up on stories about his character and his mission and read what he wrote? All religions expect people to do the same kinds of things. So some of us have checked out some of the other religions. And what do we find?

People can test that however they want to test that.
Why would it matter what you find in the other religions. That is not relevant to the Baha'i Faith, IF you are still considering the Baha'i Faith.

At least the Baha'i Faith has things actually written by their prophet. As least, they have a more verifiable history of his character and the things he went through. But still, the big question, is there a God, what is he like, what does he expect of people and did he send Baha'u'llah and the other messengers? How you going to prove an invisible, unknowable God? By what the messengers said about him?

You are not going to prove that God exists as a fact, but you can prove it to yourself, and then you believe it is true, and some of us know it is true, we not only believe. Yes, what Baha'u'llah said about God in Gleanings did it for me. After that there was no doubt that God existed, who God was, and what God wanted of us. I have never looked back.

They all said different things. If people want to believe the Baha'is explanation as to why those other religions are so different, then great. But all they are doing is taking the word of someone who says they know the real truth. It might sound wonderful. It might sound like the truth and make perfect sense to you.

But why expect others to take that leap of faith? Why expect them to trust what the Baha'i Faith teaches? And by some things you've said, you don't. But it sounds like you do. You keep putting things out there that sound no different than some proselytizing Christian religion.

No, I do not expect anyone to believe what I believe. I am only answering posts because that is my responsibility. I actually hate being a Baha'i and having this responsibility, but I care about people so I answer.

You sound like you are trying to convince others that Baha'u'llah is a messenger of God. And that he says there is a God, so therefore God is real. And because God is real and Baha'u'llah is a messenger of God, all people should follow and believe everything he says. When Baha'is say "search" for the truth, they mean find that Baha'u'llah is the truth. Whether or not you think you are pushing this or not, that is exactly what it seems like you are doing.

I am not trying to convince anybody of anything. Why do you think that? If I had it my way they would all just go away and leave me alone. Every morning I wake up and I dread looking at this forum and any new posts to me. I hate it more than I hate this life, and that is saying something since I hate this life.

Answering posts when people post to me is not pushing anything. What am I supposed to do, ignore people who post to me? If I could I would but then I would feel guilty. I hate this more than life itself. What about that do you not understand? My life has been ruined by the Baha'i Faith and I can never get my life back and my house and property is in a shambles, after nine years on forums. I only do it because I consider it a duty. I'd much rather be in the mountains, anywhere but here.

I will leave you with this. If a person gets life in prison they try to make the best of it because that are not getting out. That does not mean they "like" being in prison for life. That is what I try to do, make the best of a bad situation. Possibly I can escape someday, God willing.

Now on to the 20 posts I have to answer.

 

[Trailblazer]

Where is it then? Where is the objective evidence that the so called "messengers of god" are evidence for god? Unless you have evidence for the connection, you have no evidence for god.

The evidence IS the connection, sorry you cannot see it.

This isn't a subjective matter. Unless you can objectively connect the evidence you have to the conclusion (that your god is real) then you have no evidence. End of story.

There is no objective evidence that proves God exists. End of story.

Now you're directly contradicting yourself. This seems to be Schrödinger's evidence that somehow both exists and doesn't exist at the same time!

Your accusations of irrationality are, yet again, based entirely on your own, personal, evidenced-free faith. It's not illogical or irrational to expect direct evidence for a god that wants to communicate with us, unless I accept your faith - which I don't. In fact, it seems to make even less sense than most others I've talked about with people.

It is completely illogical and irrational to expect to have 'objective evidence' for a God that can never be seen, a God that is spirit.

Right out the door it is illogical and irrational to expect direct evidence for God UNLESS that God wants to produce it. Do you understand that God is in the driver's seat, you are not? You cannot make an omnipotent God do anything that He does not choose to do. I don't have to be a Baha'i to know that, logic tells me that, although Baha'u'llah confirms what logic tells us.

Omnipotence implies ability but it also implies that God only uses that ability as He chooses to, NOT as you want Him to. The following verses explain what omnipotence implies, in a nutshell:

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest.He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p, 284

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings, p. 73

You seem completely unable to intellectually detach yourself from your faith and even imagine what it looks like from outside.

I am anything but attached to my faith so that just shows how little you know about me. I just explained how I feel about my faith to @CG Didymus in the post above. The only reason I am a Baha'i is because of the evidence, PERIOD. Moreover, my belief is ALL intellectual, not emotional. I do not even like God, I just believe He exists.

Obviously people on the outside have no clue what is going on in my mind, not that I care what they think about me. Why would I care?

Stamping your foot will not turn a bunch of significant people in the history of religion into actual evidence for a god, and such evidence is something you've already said doesn't exist. At least make up your own mind whether there can be evidence for god or not!

One has to make that connection themselves, by looking at history and using LOGIC. The Baha'i Faith is the only logical religion that exists besides Islam in its pure form. THAT is why I am a Baha'i, not because I want to be one! What other religion has writings like the following? If you look at who the Baha'is are you will see that the bulk of them are highly educated intellectuals, and that can be proven as a fact.

“The greatest bestowal of God in the world of humanity is religion; for assuredly the divine teachings of religion are above all other sources of instruction and development to man. Religion confers upon man eternal life and guides his footsteps in the world of morality. It opens the doors of unending happiness and bestows everlasting honor upon the human kingdom. It has been the basis of all civilization and progress in the history of mankind.

We will therefore investigate religion, seeking from an unprejudiced standpoint to discover whether it is the source of illumination, the cause of development and the animating impulse of all human advancement. We will investigate independently, free from the restrictions of dogmatic beliefs, blind imitations of ancestral forms, and the influence of mere human opinion; for as we enter this question we will find some who declare that religion is a cause of uplift and betterment in the world, while others assert just as positively that it is a detriment and a source of degradation to mankind. We must give these questions thorough and impartial consideration so that no doubt or uncertainty may linger in our minds regarding them.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 270

Baha'i World Faith is one of the first books I read that convinced me that the Baha'i Faith is the truth. I did not CARE about God back then, all I cared about was the truth. Only much later did I connect the dots, when I realized that religious truth comes from God.

If you read this chapter in its entirety you will get a broad overview of the Baha’i viewpoint on religion in general, within the context of history and its relationship to present day society.

RELIGION AND CIVILIZATION

Argumentum ad populum fallacy. What's more, of course, they believe in different and contradictory gods (and many in more than one god) and many would also claim a direct, personal relationship with god.

I had a feeling you would cite that fallacy, but I did not commit that fallacy because I did not SAY that God exists because many or most people believe that God exists. As I always say, "God does not exist" is one of the logical possibilities.

There is a logical explanation as to why people believe in many different Gods and only the Bahai faith has that explanation. Christians 'believe' they can have a direct personal relationship with God but they could never prove it. I believe that is a false belief, but you are free to believe whatever you want to, or believe nothing at all. That is why God gave you a rational mind and free will to choose.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

 

[Tiberius]

You get different people with different opinions about God because different religions have been revealed in different ages, so religions are different from each other. It is as simple as that. You do not have the same situation with science. Facts came to be established at a certain point in time and people accepted them as true because they could be proven. By contrast, religions cannot be proven true or false so it is all a matter of what people believe. That does not mean they are not true or false, but that cannot be proven.

The difference is that our old ideas about science were never true to begin with.

Religion is not an explanation for physical reality, it is about morality and spiritual reality. Science cannot touch those with a ten foot pole. Why compare religion to science? Clearly, religion and science fall under two completely different purviews. Both are necessary for human life and progress but neither one can replace the other.

The fact that religion explains where the universe came from and all that means that you are wrong.

No, I never presented religion and science as the same thing, I said they are different. Science explains how the physical reality works but religion explains how morality works, how we should life to me moral and how we should treat our fellow man. Religion also deals with spiritual reality and the soul and the afterlife. Science cannot address those. Religion does not fail because it does not try to explain the physical reality.

So what? Religion is used by many people as an explanation for physical reality. Look at all the young earth creationists out there.

You are wrong about that. The objective facts about Baha'u'llah mean something different to you and other people than they mean to Baha'is. To Baha'is they mean that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God. To you and to others they are of no import.

No, they mean the same thing. You just use them to reach an unjustified conclusion.

You can explain why you think I am wrong without labeling it as a logical fallacy. I consider that rude.

No, what's rude is for you to think you have any right to tell me how I respond to your posts. You do not get to censor me.

If you don't want me to say you are using logical fallacies, then don't use them, simple as that. If you use them, I will say so.

Explanation for WHAT? Religion is clearly not an explanation for the physical reality, nor is science an explanation for the spiritual reality.

As an explanation for anything that is real.

That's right. I never argued anything ton the contrary.

So then you agree that there is no objective evidence that Mr B was a messenger from God.

There is a logical explanation for that, a VERY logical explanation. The reason religion leads to different conclusions about spirituality and morality is because (a) there are many different religions that have different teachings and (b) people view the teachings and interpret the scriptures differently, even within the same religions. What is the most accurate in the eyes of God is the latest religion that was revealed because it has the current/updated teachings and laws for living a moral life and the current/updated teachings about the soul and the spiritual world.

Even if that were true, all it means is that God has to make new religions to accommodate his changing whims. Sounds like a guy making his own fan club and changing the rules every now and then.

Their scopes DO NOT overlap, and neither one of them is wrong. The Baha'i perspective on science and religion is as follows:

So then why is it that you reject the science (specifically the studies on how effective prayer is) just because you don't like them?

 

[Tiberius]

Been there, done that.

Been there, haven't done that.

 

[Tiberius]

Not after I have opted out of that discussion.

I've seen many believers turn and leave when the discussion get's too difficult for them. Once again, you act just the same as so many believers before you.

I don't buy that but I think it is way past time to let this one go.

That's the great thing about science. It's true, even if you don't believe it.

 

[Tiberius]

When you have to cite a logical fallacy all that shows is that you are too weak to rely upon your own words. Only arrogant people cite logical fallacies constantly because what they are doing is putting other people down to raise themselves up - I am right and you are wrong. Also, it is rude to keep doing it when I asked you to stop.

I don't care. If you don't want me to point out that you use logical fallacies, don't use them. I've got better things to do then waste my time trying to be polite to someone who thinks they can demand that I censor myself.

But I do know it reflects people on this forum and they are part of reality.

We were talking about the statistics of people leaving Baha'i. We were not talking about people on this forum.

You are right. Most people who join the Baha'i Faith in adulthood are likely to be those who have studied various different religions to try to find one that fits them well, one that makes sense to them. They're not likely to be people who just try a bunch of different religions hoping to stumble across one that suits them.

I know I'm right. You're agreement does not change the fact that you were trying to imply that Baha'i was better because of it.

And I told you that the Baha'i Faith does not have solutions for human problems that fall under the purview of science, that is what we have science for.

You said Baha'i has solutions for issues of morality, yet it seems to be woefully inadequate when it comes to the moral issues surrounding the use of scientific developments.

 

[Tiberius]

Our desires will play a part in what we choose to believe and there is nothing wrong with that because what we choose will be based upon our desires and preferences. People make choices based upon their desires and preferences. People do not choose things they do not desire, not unless they have to do them, such as job one does not like they have to go to because it puts food on the table. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. What we don't want to do is choose a belief based on our emotions but rather we should use our intellect to determine if a religion is true, but having a desire does not have to interfere with our intellect.

Finding out how reality actually works doesn't work like that.

And you are contradicting yourself, since here you are saying that there's nothing wrong with letting our desires and wants form our beliefs, and yet in post 3303 (which you posted YESTERDAY), you said, "what people want should never play any part in what they believe."

You are contradictory and inconsistent. Is there any point in trying to have a discussion with you?

Then find a test and we will put it to the test.

I have presented examples of such tests several times, and each and every time you came up with excuses as to why they didn't count.

 

[Trailblazer]

The difference is that our old ideas about science were never true to begin with.

And some old religious ideas were never true to begin with either.

The fact that religion explains where the universe came from and all that means that you are wrong.

Religion teaches that God created the universe but that is just one belief and it is not a good example of a crossover between religion and science.

So what? Religion is used by many people as an explanation for physical reality. Look at all the young earth creationists out there.

Is the Baha’i Faith to be held responsible for what other religions teach? Baha’is do not attempt to explain physical reality except to say that God created it.

No, they mean the same thing. You just use them to reach an unjustified conclusion.

My conclusion is just as justified as the other conclusions.

No, what's rude is for you to think you have any right to tell me how I respond to your posts. You do not get to censor me.

You can say whatever you want to but just don’t expect me to answer.

If you don't want me to say you are using logical fallacies, then don't use them, simple as that. If you use them, I will say so.

Go ahead, just don’t expect me to answer. I just decided today to dismiss the posts of two other atheists who are insulting me. I have free will to choose so I don’t have to tolerate insults. If you care more about pointing out how you think I erred than about me as a human being there is no reason that I have to post to you.

As an explanation for anything that is real.

I believe that both the physical reality and the spiritual reality are part of ONE reality.

“The spiritual world is like unto the phenomenal world. They are the exact counterpart of each other. Whatever objects appear in this world of existence are the outer pictures of the world of heaven.” The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 10

“Your questions, however, can be answered only briefly, since there is no time for a detailed reply. The answer to the first question: the souls of the children of the Kingdom, after their separation from the body, ascend unto the realm of everlasting life. But if ye ask as to the place, know ye that the world of existence is a single world, although its stations are various and distinct.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 193

“Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work, the work of the Kingdom, is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call ‘time and place.’ Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man. Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation.” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, pp. 95-96

So then you agree that there is no objective evidence that Mr B was a messenger from God.

There is objective evidence but there is no objective evidence that proves that.

Even if that were true, all it means is that God has to make new religions to accommodate his changing whims. Sounds like a guy making his own fan club and changing the rules every now and then.

No, not at all. God reveals new religions to keep pace with the changing times. God does not do the for Himself, He does it for humans who have changing needs.

So then why is it that you reject the science (specifically the studies on how effective prayer is) just because you don't like them?

I don’t reject them, I am just not interested in them because I do not care if God answers prayers or not. If I had time I would look at them, but I rarely have a moment.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've seen many believers turn and leave when the discussion get's too difficult for them. Once again, you act just the same as so many believers before you.

Quite the contrary. I never run away. There is not one single believer on this forum who would tolerate all the insults I tolerate from certain atheists. I should ignore them and I am getting close to doing so. I don't get guff from other believers, even though they do not share my beliefs.

When the going gets rough for some atheists they have no recourse but to hurl insults at believers, calling them irrational and illogical. It is really rather pathetic because it is so obvious they have nothing to back up their positions. People who have something to back up their positions use it, they don't have to resort to personal insults.

That's the great thing about science. It's true, even if you don't believe it.

That's the great thing about the Baha'i Faith. It's true, even if you don't believe it

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't care. If you don't want me to point out that you use logical fallacies, don't use them. I've got better things to do then waste my time trying to be polite to someone who thinks they can demand that I censor myself.

And as I said in a previous post, I have better things to do than post to people who cannot control themselves and just have to criticize. Only arrogant people cite logical fallacies constantly because what they are doing is putting other people down to raise themselves up - I am right and you are wrong.

I know I'm right. You're agreement does not change the fact that you were trying to imply that Baha'i was better because of it.

You are walking a thin line. You have no right to tell me what I was implying, after I already told I was not implying that.

You said Baha'i has solutions for issues of morality, yet it seems to be woefully inadequate when it comes to the moral issues surrounding the use of scientific developments.

People can use the Baha’i Writings to determine what would be considered moral but there is nothing specific that addresses these developments.

 

[Trailblazer]

Finding out how reality actually works doesn't work like that.

Then how does it work?

And you are contradicting yourself, since here you are saying that there's nothing wrong with letting our desires and wants form our beliefs, and yet in post 3303 (which you posted YESTERDAY), you said, "what people want should never play any part in what they believe."

You are contradictory and inconsistent. Is there any point in trying to have a discussion with you?

What I said yesterday was said in a specific context. I meant we should not just choose a religion just because we want it, like we want like a new pair of shoes because they are pretty. In other words we should not act on our emotions, we should use reason.

However, we are going to choose a religion according to our desires and preferences that come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and life circumstances

I have presented examples of such tests several times, and each and every time you came up with excuses as to why they didn't count.

Tests using the Bible are not tests that test the Baha’i Faith.

 

[ratiocinator]

The evidence IS the connection, sorry you cannot see it.

You've already admitted that the connection is your own subjective opinion.

There is no objective evidence that proves God exists. End of story.

Now you've contradicted yourself again.

Right out the door it is illogical and irrational to expect direct evidence for God UNLESS that God wants to produce it. Do you understand that God is in the driver's seat, you are not? You cannot make an omnipotent God do anything that He does not choose to do. I don't have to be a Baha'i to know that, logic tells me that, although Baha'u'llah confirms what logic tells us.

If there is a god, of course this is true. And we've discussed this at length before. If a god chooses not to provide objective evidence, then it can't expect rational people to believe it exists. If it has an important message, and it withholds objective evidence, it is being cruel, unjust, and unfair.

The only reason I am a Baha'i is because of the evidence, PERIOD.

I'm seeing lots of evidence in your posts that suggests that you don't really get what evidence is.

One has to make that connection themselves, by looking at history and using LOGIC.

Well, you do keep on contradicting yourself and you can actually logically proof anything at all if your premises are contradictory (principle of explosion). Of course you could prove that your god doesn't exist too.

I had a feeling you would cite that fallacy, but I did not commit that fallacy because I did not SAY that God exists because many or most people believe that God exists.

So why do you keep on bringing it up?

There is a logical explanation as to why people believe in many different Gods and only the Bahai faith has that explanation.

Your attempts to justify this (IIRC) rest of some mythical 'original messages' that wouldn't actually be contradictory. When you have to make up stuff to make it make sense, that isn't really an explanation. Why would a god allow its messages to be corrupted?