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Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
What matters is that we all strive to embody these spiritual principles, recognize the commonalities in our respective Faith traditions, and use those commonalities as the foundation for a world civilization built on respect, collaboration, and unity.
And do Baha'is really believe in the teachings and doctrines of the other religions? No. So do you and can you respect an Atheist Hindu? Or a Buddhist that believes he has reincarnated? Or a Christian that literally believes in the creation story?

But let's pretend you can. They are supposed to help build a new world order with the Baha'is? What is that new world order? If it's the new world order of the Baha'is, why would Baha'is expect them to go along with it? Don't you think they'd have a plan of their own, or at least want to have a voice in the Baha'i plan that allows them to add or take away some of the things in it? And, would Baha'is really be okay with that? Then the same thing with those that don't believe in God or religion? Will they be able to take an active and equal role in building this new world order? And, if so, how do you think they will like it that the plan and the moral codes are based on what God has supposedly decreed? I have no confidence in the Baha'is being able to build anything with anyone except other Baha'is.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Jesus said.... :rolleyes:

John's is the only one of the four not considered among the Synoptic Gospels (i.e., those presenting a common view). Although the Gospel is ostensibly written by St. John the Apostle, “the beloved disciple” of Jesus, there has been considerable discussion of the actual identity of the author.
Subjects: Jesus

Gospel According to John | Description, Authorship, & Facts
https://www.britannica.com › ... › Scriptures


People also ask

Who is the author of John 14?
Jesus speaks individually with Thomas, Philip and Judas (not the Iscariot). The author of the book containing this chapter is anonymous, but early Christian tradition uniformly believed that John composed this Gospel.

John 14 - Wikipedia
Yeah, can't trust this John guy. And someone keeps quoting him as if Jesus really said his work is finished, why would they do that knowing that John might not even be John the apostle? It's terrible when people do that, right?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Okay, prior to the coming of Baha'u'llah and The Bab, should have or could have the men of the world taken more than one wife? And, just to make sure, does the Quran actually teach that it is acceptable in God's eyes to have multiple wives? But then, if not, then why did Baha'u'llah have more than one wife?
The Qur'an allows for four wives. Baha'u'llah had three wives but He took them when He was a Muslim, so He was under Islamic laws, not Baha'i Laws.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And do Baha'is really believe in the teachings and doctrines of the other religions? No. So do you and can you respect an Atheist Hindu? Or a Buddhist that believes he has reincarnated? Or a Christian that literally believes in the creation story?
Why are you talking about the Baha'i Faith? You accused me of making this thread about the Baha'i Faith, but it was never me who made this thread about the Baha'i Faith. You make every thread I start about the Baha'i Faith and the religions that preceded it.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yeah, can't trust this John guy. And someone keeps quoting him as if Jesus really said his work is finished, why would they do that knowing that John might not even be John the apostle? It's terrible when people do that, right?
I guess you cannot help yourself from talking about the Bible and the Baha'i Faith and other religions. ;)
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I guess you cannot help yourself from talking about the Bible and the Baha'i Faith and other religions. ;)
Just responding to things you post. But if you don't trust this thing called the gospel of John then don't quote it. But, I guess, you can't help it.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Just responding to things you post. But if you don't trust this thing called the gospel of John then don't quote it. But, I guess, you can't help it.
Did I post that to you?
I will quote anything I feel like quoting and who said I don't trust the gospel of John? All I said is that nobody knows who wrote it.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
None of which addresses the point. If there is objective evidence for Baha’u’llah and if there were an objective reason to think that Baha’u’llah proves god, then you would have objective evidence for god.
I do not know what you mean, an objective reason to think that Baha’u’llah proves god.
So, can there be objective evidence for god or not?
No, nobody can analyze, measure, observe, examine or evaluate God so there can never be any objective evidence for God.

What does objective evidence mean?

Objective evidence refers to information based on facts that can be proved by means of search like analysis, measurement, and observation. One can examine and evaluate objective evidence.

What does objective evidence mean?
Why would I take it back? It was a hypothetical. The second 'if' above, does not appear to be true.
I don’t see a second if. Did you mean IF Baha’u’llah is proof of god, and that does not appear to be true?
Why am I having to repeat myself so much and remind you of what you've said? If god is omnipotent, then it could (obviously - it would be within its power) provide objective evidence.
No, God could not provide objective evidence of Himself because God is not a material being that can be seen in the material world. God being omnipotent has nothing to do with this.
It was your argument that god does not choose to do that. By not choosing to do that, it is discriminating against rational people (or would be if it actually existed).
It was never my argument that God does not choose to provide objective evidence of Himself. All I ever said is that God chooses not to prove He exists since He wants us to prove He exists for ourselves. Any rational person who read the definition of God that I posted would know that God can never provide objective evidence of Himself. God is not a material being so He cannot just show up on earth. That is why God manifests Himself in the Messengers, who Baha’is usually refer to as Manifestations of God.
Why is that in any way rational? It's an obviously stupid idea. Just look how it turned out. Such a god would have to be stupid (or cruel and unjust).
Why? Because the only way humans can ever know anything about God if from a Messenger who can mediate between God and humans. It has turned out just fine since 93% of people in the world believe in God and most of them believe because of one of the Messengers.

Please let me know when you come up with a better way and I will drop it I God’s suggestion box next time I see Him. :D
If this god was omniscient too, then it would know, in exact detail, the consequences of its creation act, right down to every detail of our nature and nurture. Free will (as many people consider it) is nonsense anyway, only the compatibilist version makes any sense at all. But I guess going into that would be way off topic.
God does know everything that has ever happened or will ever happen but what God’s foreknowledge does not cause anything to happen. Things happen as the result if human free will decisions and the actions that ensue. We are not free to do anything we want to because free will is constrained, but we do have volition, a will of our own, and that is what leads to our actions.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
I do not know what you mean, an objective reason to think that Baha’u’llah proves god.

You don't seem to be able to make up your mind. You have claimed that Baha’u’llah proves god but you haven't given us any objective evidence, it seems to be blind faith. If there was an objective reason to think that, then we'd have objective evidence for god, which you keep saying is impossible.
No, nobody can analyze, measure, observe, examine or evaluate God so there can never be any objective evidence for God.

See above.
What does objective evidence mean?

Objective evidence refers to information based on facts that can be proved by means of search like analysis, measurement, and observation. One can examine and evaluate objective evidence.

What does objective evidence mean?

I know what objective evidence means. It's very tedious when you clutter up your posts with things pretty much everybody knows.
I don’t see a second if. Did you mean IF Baha’u’llah is proof of god, and that does not appear to be true?

There were two, bold and underlined 'if's in the previous statement. Yes, I do mean it appears to be false that Baha’u’llah proves god, firstly because you haven't given us any reasoning, and secondly because, if there were a valid, objective reason to think so, then you'd be contradicting your claim that there can be no objective evidence for god.
No, God could not provide objective evidence of Himself because God is not a material being that can be seen in the material world. God being omnipotent has nothing to do with this.

You're contradicting yourself again - and of course omnipotence would mean that god could do anything it wanted, so it could do anything to the physical world and provide objective evidence. That's what omnipotent means. And it was your argument that god could do this but chooses not to.
It was never my argument that God does not choose to provide objective evidence of Himself. All I ever said is that God chooses not to prove He exists...

That's the same thing. To prove it exists, it would have to supply undeniable objective evidence.
...He wants us to prove He exists for ourselves.

Which is, even in principle, impossible with no objective evidence.
Why? Because the only way humans can ever know anything about God if from a Messenger who can mediate between God and humans.

Which is god's choice, he could have made things differently, if it is actually omnipotent.
It has turned out just fine since 93% of people in the world believe in God and most of them believe because of one of the Messengers.

And most of them have got it wrong (because they believe corrupted messages, and they don't believe in multiple messengers), not to mention the fact that they've indulged in violence and oppression of each other because of their differences. Yes, great plan, who cares about those tortured to death, eh?
Please let me know when you come up with a better way and I will drop it I God’s suggestion box next time I see Him. :D

Easy, provide a clear, objectively verifiable message to everybody in the world.
God does know everything that has ever happened or will ever happen but what God’s foreknowledge does not cause anything to happen.

Of course it does. If you have perfect foreknowledge of the consequences of designing the world one way, then you can choose to do it that way or not (and maybe do it another way). Choosing to do it one way, in the perfect knowledge of all the consequences makes god entirely responsible for them. Omnipotent + omniscient = omni-responsible.
 

Dropship

Member
Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.
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Jesus said- "I know where I came from and where I am going, but you have no idea where I come from or where I am going....you are of this world, I am not of this world...though you do not believe me, believe the miracles...I'll tell you things hidden since the creation of the world" (John 8:14/ 8:23/10:38/Matt 13:35)

And as scientists estimate there are thousands of advanced civilisations in our galaxy alone, Jesus was technically an alien visitor with awesome powers so I should think he's worth listening to..:)

drake-eqatn2.jpg


drake-eqatn2.jpg
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
God should give you what you want or else God is being cruel, unjust, and unfair. I consider that childish.
It's great that you've found a religion that you believe is absolutely true. But lots of people think they have too... and they are all different. And you will probably reject all those others for very much the same reasons as atheists do... There's no objective proof. It is just those people believing in something that can't be proven. And, just like you, those people believe that they do have proof.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said: There is no objective evidence for God but there is objective evidence for Baha’u’llah, who is the proof that God exists.
  • There is no objective evidence for God.
  • There is objective evidence for Baha'u'llah.
  • Baha'u'llah is proof that God exists.
Okay, there is no objective evidence for God. But, there is objective evidence for Baha'u'llah? That he is a manifestation of God? And since he's a manifestation of God there must be a God? And is that subjective evidence, since you say there is no objective evidence of God?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Qur'an allows for four wives. Baha'u'llah had three wives but He took them when He was a Muslim, so He was under Islamic laws, not Baha'i Laws.
This is why I asked...
The reason religion leads to different conclusions about spirituality and morality is because (a) there are many different religions that have different teachings and (b) people view the teachings and interpret the scriptures differently, even within the same religions. What is the most accurate in the eyes of God is the latest religion that was revealed because it has the current/updated teachings and laws for living a moral life and the current/updated teachings about the soul and the spiritual world.
200 years ago Islam was the most current. Do you really think the world should have obeyed Islamic law, because it was more "accurate" and had the most "current/updated" teachings?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
@Tiberius and @ratiocinator

I have not forgotten about you but I got buried under over 900 posts on that new thread I started last Friday (stupid me) and now I cannot seem to get off the merry-go-round, but I have all your Alerts saved in a Word document so I will answer them as soon as things die down on that other thread, hopefully soon.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
No, the fallacy does not apply to God because God IS the exception to every generally accepted rule.

Logical fallacies do not apply to God because God is not subject to logic.

Do you really not understand how utterly absurd this is? How many times have you made claims about what is logical or rational? How many times have you accused others of fallacies?
Trailblazer said: There is no objective evidence for God but there is objective evidence for Baha’u’llah, who is the proof that God exists.
  • There is no objective evidence for God.
  • There is objective evidence for Baha'u'llah.
  • Baha'u'llah is proof that God exists.

Still contradicting yourself, I see. If this were all objectively true (which it obviously isn't), then there would be objective evidence for god, which you said is impossible and not what god wants anyway.

I suggest taking a break and making up your mind, once and for all, what you actually think about logic and evidence.
 
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Dropship

Member
It's great that you've found a religion that you believe is absolutely true. But lots of people think they have too... and they are all different. And you will probably reject all those others for very much the same reasons as atheists do...There's no objective proof..

But as somebody said in another post, atheists wouldn't accept any proof at all..:)
As for nonchristians who follow other religions, the founders of all those religions are corpses in graves somewhere but Jesus is not, spot the difference?

 

Dropship

Member
As for nonchristians who follow other religions, the founders of all those religions are corpses in graves somewhere but Jesus is not, spot the difference?
Baseless assertion.

As for other "gods", a witch in a chatroom once said she was invoking the Egyptian goddess Sekhmet to come and get me; I put the kettle on but she never turned up, hey guys don't you just hate getting stood up by goddesses?
(Mind you after seeing her pic I wouldn't have known whether to tickle her chin or offer her a saucer of milk)..

rel-sekhmet.jpg
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
As for other "gods", a witch in a chatroom once said she was invoking the Egyptian goddess Sekhmet to come and get me; I put the kettle on but she never turned up, hey guys don't you just hate getting stood up by goddesses?

This shows that Jesus is not dead, how, exactly?
 
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