Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Mock Turtle]

Well at least rubbing shoulders with Christians might help people learn a few things..

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Best not to insult all those of a different religion though.

 

[Dropship]

[Ehrman]... is both atheist and agnostic.

He's still a Jesus-rejecter..

Jesus said:- "Whoever rejects me rejects God" (Luke 10:16)

 

[Dropship]

Best not to insult all those of a different religion though.

We Christians simply want to be good samaritans to help nonchristians and atheists..

"..in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will" (2 Tim 2:23-26)

 

[ratiocinator]

Well at least rubbing shoulders with Christians might help people learn a few things..

How to make trite, reasoning- and evidence-free assertions?

 

[Tiberius]

That is not what I meant by overlap. I meant that that science and religion have mutually exclusive explanations for creation so the explanations do not overlap. In the sense that science and religion both present an explanation for why the universe is here I agree that they overlap.

Then the point stands that they can't both be right, and my point also stands that science and religion contradict each other when it comes to why the universe is here. The difference here is that science can be tested by anyone in principle, and results between people can be checked. If I conduct some scientific study, you can point out where I made a mistake, for example. But when it comes to religion, that can't be done.

So when we have two contradictory explanations and one of the (religion) is unfalsifiable and the other one (science) is open for all to check, which one do you think is going to come closest to getting it right?

That is just a claim, that the spiritual reality would produce 'measurable' effects on physical reality and in that way we could show that spiritual reality exists. I believe that the spiritual reality definitely does affect the physical reality, but not in ways that are objectively measurable.

How could it have any measurable effect on reality if it is, by definition, it cannot be shown to exist.

If I show that X has some measurable effect, then that measurable effect is showing that X exists.

Moreover, there are planets outside our solar system that cannot be 'shown' to exist, yet they exist. Being able to show something exists is not what makes it exist, something either exists or does not exist. That also applies to God.

True. but our ability to detect exoplanets is growing better every day.

And of course, I must point out that if there is some exoplanet that we can't show exists, then that planet has absolutely no affect on us here on Earth at all. It is only by measuring the effect that it has (such as how it affects the light from its home star) that we can determine it exists.

If you are going to claim that the same applies to God, then you are saying that God can't have any effect on us here on Earth. Or anywhere in the observable universe. And the instant God DOES have some measurable effect, then we can show he exists.

So far, there has been nothing that can be shown to be only explainable by God.

You could use that argument by my oh my are you going to be surprised when you die and realize that spiritual reality actually exists. Christians refer to it as heaven but there is also a hell even though it is nothing like the Christian hell.

Oh my, are you going to be surprised when you die and realise that there's actually nothing. Oh wait, no you won't, because you won't exist to realise anything.

 

[Tiberius]

You are right about that. Four stars for logic!

Of course my beliefs don't determine reality, reality simply exists regardless of what anyone believes about it.

Then you simply believing in spiritual things is not enough to prove that spiritual things exist. You are welcome to believe that they do, of course, but for this discussion, your mere belief is not sufficient. If you want people to accept that there is a spiritual reality, you must demonstrate it in a way that can be verified by the people you are discussing it with.

 

[Tiberius]

Okay, but first you will have to explain more about what it is and the application you are concerned about.

What is the correct moral decision regarding the use of genetic modification to unborn babies, according the the Baha'i faith based on the writings of Mr B?

 

[night912]

That is because when you made the errors you ignored the corrections. You can ask people to correct you in the future, but at this point you have lost the ability to demand that people show where you have failed.

As usual you are not direct in what you say so I cannot respond. You just say I am not logical.

Okay fine. I guess I'll be Mr. Nice Guy and show you why you are illogical. Look below please.

My reasoning is logical unless you can prove otherwise.

This is good example of a logical fallacy called, Argument from ignorance. This is fallacious because you being unaware that your reasoning is illogical, does not make it logical. A proposition cannot be both true and false, so if later on someone demonstrate that it's illogical, it means that it was illogical the whole time.

So even before I posted this, your reasoning was illogical. You not knowing and/or understanding that your reasoning is illogical, is irrelevant.

 

[Dropship]

How to make trite, reasoning- and evidence-free assertions?

Speaking of evidence, I don't see any atheist evidence that proves there's no God..

 

[Mock Turtle]

We Christians simply want to be good samaritans to help nonchristians and atheists..

"..in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will" (2 Tim 2:23-26)

Perhaps, but it might come across more as arrogance - just as so many others with a different religious belief often do too. Not noticed?

 

[Dropship]

We Christians simply want to be good samaritans to help nonchristians and atheists- "..in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will" (2 Tim 2:23-26)

Perhaps, but it might come across more as arrogance - just as so many others with a different religious belief often do too. Not noticed?

Think of it more as "supreme confidence" rather than arrogance..
"..as a Christian,thank God you bear that name....that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured" (1 Peter 4:16, Col 4:12)

Here, check out this vid of me under my other screenname 'PoorOldSpike'; play it fullscreen for maximum dramatic effect and note the superbly unruffled Christian body language-

 

[Mock Turtle]

Think of it more as "supreme confidence" rather than arrogance..
"..as a Christian,thank God you bear that name....that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured" (1 Peter 4:16, Col 4:12)

Here, check out this vid of me under my other screenname 'PoorOldSpike'; play it fullscreen for maximum dramatic effect and note the superbly unruffled Christian body language-

I don't do religion. I lost the desire for that, if I might even have had such which I never did, long ago. I'm more interested in reality and truth. Perhaps you've never considered this position? As to God - I leave that bit alone, given that there are as many reasons to believe in such or not - and one fork leads to so many complications.

 

[Dropship]

..Oh my, are you going to be surprised when you die and realise that there's actually nothing. Oh wait, no you won't, because you won't exist to realise anything.

Don't put yourself down mate, surely there must be some good bits in you atheists that God might not want to let go to waste?..

THE ATHEIST CONSERVATIONIST

 

[ratiocinator]

Speaking of evidence, I don't see any atheist evidence that proves there's no God..

Argument from ignorance fallacy.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oh my. Everyone is right except for me.

If many atheists believe x about Tb it must be true... What's that fallacy called?

Argumentum ad populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Once again, you need to stop trying to use logical fallacies. When you have constantly failed no one will be convinced by your inability to use them correctly. And no, that was not an argumentum ad populum. You also need to learn the difference between an argument and an observation.

Speaking of evidence, I don't see any atheist evidence that proves there's no God..

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And I do not see any evidence that there are not any pixies.

Do you understand how you just failed? Your attempted argument for God is not better than the same argument for pixies.

If you were thinking rationally you would have realized that the burden of proof is upon the believers. What you have just performed is the act of shifting the burden of proof. It amounts to you admitting that there is no rational reason to believe in your version of God.


It think that our theists are students of the world's preeminent pixieologist. There arguments remind me of this quote of his:

""You will not apply my precept," he said, shaking his head. "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"

 

[Tiberius]

Don't put yourself down mate, surely there must be some good bits in you atheists that God might not want to let go to waste?..

THE ATHEIST CONSERVATIONIST
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Cool story. Not convincing in the slightest that your position is the right one.

 

[Truthseeker]

Exactly which "prophets" do you think God sent after Jesus?

Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah.

I do too much debating here. Don't want to debate whether these were prophets or not. Hard not to debate in a forum that seems to be built for debate.

 

[Trailblazer]

Exactly which "prophets" do you think God sent after Jesus?

Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

But why should we believe that Baha'u'ullah bloke?
What did he say that's better than what Jesus said?

It is not that He said anything better, it is that He said something new and different, something that God wants us to know.

Jesus did not tell us everything because humanity was not ready to hear everything that Jesus knew back in the days when Jesus walked the earth. That is why Jesus sad:

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah was the Spirit of truth, the return of Christ and the Messiah of the latter days. We believe that Jesus was also a Messiah, but not the Messiah promised in the Old Testament.

I think we should believe in Baha'u'llah because God sent Him, and there is a lot of evidence that shows that He was a Messenger of God/Prophet/return of Christ.

 

[Dropship]

..Jesus did not tell us everything because humanity was not ready to hear everything that Jesus knew back in the days when Jesus walked the earth. That is why Jesus sad:

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah was the Spirit of truth, the return of Christ and the Messiah of the latter days. We believe that Jesus was also a Messiah, but not the Messiah promised in the Old Testament.

Muslims say Mohammed was the prophet, Mormons say Joseph Smith was the prophet, and you say Baha'u'llah was the prophet, so which one is the true one?..