Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Subduction Zone]

Oh my. Everyone is right except for me.

If many atheists believe x about Tb it must be true... What's that fallacy called?

Argumentum ad populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Nope. If we only believed that you might have a case. It was demonstrated again and again.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have not shown there is any spiritual world.

It cannot be shown from this world but you will know it exists when you die and get there and experience it for yourself.

You are contradicting yourself.

You said, "we are going to choose a religion according to our desires and preferences that come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and life circumstances."

When I said we buy shoes for the same exact reasons, you dismissed it as "visual and emotional," not "intellectual."

And yet the same reasons do count as intellectual after all when it comes to religion.

I have no idea what you mean.

An investigation that, being unable to be checked by anyone else, is nothing more than subjective opinion.

It is inappropriate for a religious belief to be checked bu someone else because it is YOUR belied for which God holds YOU accountable. Do you really want to go down this road again?

Baha'u'llah explained why we do not need to rely upon other people's opinions to decide what WE are going to believe -- because all men are capable of recognizing God on their own...

Baha'u'llah also explained that because we are fully accountable to God on judgment day we cannot say "Well I asked John and Joe and they did not believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God so I decided to let them influence me so I am also going to reject Baha'u'llah."

Here is the passage. Read it carefully.

“……. I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure? If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

You DON'T want to test the religion? Isn't that what the investigation was for? To make sure it was actually correct?

The proper way to test a religion is as follows:

Proofs of Prophethood​

Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men. The tests He proposed are the same as those laid down by His great predecessors. Moses said:—

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.—Deut. xviii, 22.

Christ put His test just as plainly, and appealed to it in proof of His own claim. He said:—

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. … Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.—Matt. vii, 15–17, 20

In the chapters that follow, we shall endeavor to show whether Bahá’u’lláh’s claim to Prophethood stands or falls by application of these tests: whether the things that He had spoken have followed and come to pass, and whether His fruits have been good or evil; in other words, whether His prophecies are being fulfilled and His ordinances established, and whether His lifework has contributed to the education and upliftment of humanity and the betterment of morals, or the contrary.”

Proofs of Prophethood, Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 8-9

 

[Tiberius]

I will concede to that because it is logical. I was a little muddled earlier because I had been working all day and it was late.

Thank you.

No, if you are referring to creation there is no overlap, science and religion are mutually exclusive.

You are contradicting yourself again. You just agreed with me when I said, "Science and religion both present different explanations. Since both explanations can not be true, they are contradictory," yet now you are claiming there is no overlap.

Science and religion both present an explanation for why the universe is here. Thus they overlap.

You have not demonstrated how I used any. If you want to play this game you can expect me to point out your logical fallacies.

I have pointed out many times your use of logical fallacies.

But do you understand that something can exist even if it cannot be shown to exist?

Yes, but such a thing would be unable to produce any measurable effects on reality. If it did, after all, then we would be able to measure those effects and thus show that it exists, which would violate the "cannot be shown to exist" part of your claim.

And I can use the same logic to show that we should not dismiss the existence of leprechauns.

 

[Tiberius]

No I do not assume that they exist, I believe that they exist.

Your beliefs do not reality make.

 

[Tiberius]

Why should there be something in the Baha'i Faith that addresses that specifically? A religion cannot specifically address every possible contingency. People can think for themselves and make the correct moral decisions based upon the Writings of Baha'u'llah, and the institutions of the Bahai Faith also offer guidance for individuals.

Very well. Please use the writings of Mr B to show the correct viewpoint on the ethics of genetic modification. Be clear with which part of his writings you are using as the basis for your conclusion.

 

[Tiberius]

It cannot be shown from this world but you will know it exists when you die and get there and experience it for yourself.

Ah yes. What an amazing thing religion is, to completely sell people on the idea of something they can't get until they're dead. How convenient that they are no longer in a position to tell us if it's wrong.

I have no idea what you mean.

I was very clear.

It is inappropriate for a religious belief to be checked bu someone else because it is YOUR belied for which God holds YOU accountable. Do you really want to go down this road again?

If it is actually true, then it shouldn't matter who checks and verifies it.

The proper way to test a religion is as follows:

Proofs of Prophethood​

Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men. The tests He proposed are the same as those laid down by His great predecessors. Moses said:—

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.—Deut. xviii, 22.

Christ put His test just as plainly, and appealed to it in proof of His own claim. He said:—

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. … Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.—Matt. vii, 15–17, 20

In the chapters that follow, we shall endeavor to show whether Bahá’u’lláh’s claim to Prophethood stands or falls by application of these tests: whether the things that He had spoken have followed and come to pass, and whether His fruits have been good or evil; in other words, whether His prophecies are being fulfilled and His ordinances established, and whether His lifework has contributed to the education and upliftment of humanity and the betterment of morals, or the contrary.”

Proofs of Prophethood, Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 8-9

Very well.

Jesus (who I'm sure you will agree is a prophet) claimed that we can pray to a mountain that it would move from one place to another place. However, this doesn't happen. Thus, the claims of this prophet fail.

Now, you will no doubt again make excuses as to why that doesn't count, falling back on the old standards of "But it was meant metaphorically, not literally," which believers seem to ALWAYS resort to whenever any of their so-called tests fail.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are contradicting yourself again. You just agreed with me when I said, "Science and religion both present different explanations. Since both explanations can not be true, they are contradictory," yet now you are claiming there is no overlap.

Science and religion both present an explanation for why the universe is here. Thus they overlap.

That is not what I meant by overlap. I meant that that science and religion have mutually exclusive explanations for creation so the explanations do not overlap. In the sense that science and religion both present an explanation for why the universe is here I agree that they overlap.

Yes, but such a thing would be unable to produce any measurable effects on reality. If it did, after all, then we would be able to measure those effects and thus show that it exists, which would violate the "cannot be shown to exist" part of your claim.

That is just a claim, that the spiritual reality would produce 'measurable' effects on physical reality and in that way we could show that spiritual reality exists. I believe that the spiritual reality definitely does affect the physical reality, but not in ways that are objectively measurable.

Baha'u'llah explained the Purpose that for which the Messengers of God have been sent, to prepare all men for life in the spiritual world. He then explains how the sanctified souls who have passed on to the spiritual world profoundly affect this world.

“The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples. They are like unto leaven which leaveneth the world of being, and constitute the animating force through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest. Through them the clouds rain their bounty upon men, and the earth bringeth forth its fruits. All things must needs have a cause, a motive power, an animating principle. These souls and symbols of detachment have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

Moreover, there are planets outside our solar system that cannot be 'shown' to exist, yet they exist. Being able to show something exists is not what makes it exist, something either exists or does not exist. That also applies to God.

And I can use the same logic to show that we should not dismiss the existence of leprechauns.

You could use that argument by my oh my are you going to be surprised when you die and realize that spiritual reality actually exists. Christians refer to it as heaven but there is also a hell even though it is nothing like the Christian hell.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your beliefs do not reality make.

You are right about that. Four stars for logic!

Of course my beliefs don't determine reality, reality simply exists regardless of what anyone believes about it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Very well. Please use the writings of Mr B to show the correct viewpoint on the ethics of genetic modification. Be clear with which part of his writings you are using as the basis for your conclusion.

Okay, but first you will have to explain more about what it is and the application you are concerned about.

 

[Dropship]

The fact remains, Christianity has been leading the pack for 1400 years..

Sure, if you add up all the sects and denominations that call themselves "Christian." Are there some that you don't believe have the "true" gospel? Or, are they all okay on teaching the truth about God and Jesus?

ALL religions have offshoots including Christianity Islam and Atheism, but only God knows which is the correct one.
Regarding Christianity, if some offshoots talk and act like rubbish, avoid them like the plague, they can't get under JC's radar..-

Jesus said:-"Not all who call me "Lord,Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven. Then I'll tell them plainly, I never knew you, get away from me" (Matt 7:21-23)

 

[ratiocinator]

ALL religions have offshoots including Christianity Islam and Atheism...

LOL! You've done it again - hilarious! Many religions are much older than Christianity so can't possibly be 'offshoots' - and if you think atheism is a religion, you really do need to get an education.

Edit: Misunderstanding, see #3674

 

[Dropship]

Alright try this quote of Jesus himself in which he makes it clear that his job was done, he doesn't say anything about prophets coming later-
"Jesus said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit" ( John 19:28-30)

His job was done, which means He wasn't coming back in person. This quote says absolutely nothing about other Prophets. You need to reason this out.

Exactly which "prophets" do you think God sent after Jesus?

 

[Dropship]

..Regarding Christianity, if some offshoots talk and act like rubbish, avoid them like the plague..

LOL! You've done it again - hilarious! Many religions are much older than Christianity so can't possibly be 'offshoots' - and if you think atheism is a religion, you really do need to get an education.

You've misunderstood mate, Christianity was founded by JC in the year zero,therefore all cockamamie religions that were around before then had zilch to do with Christianity..
As regards atheists such as yourself, this is the Religious Forum and you're hanging in it aren't you..

 

[ratiocinator]

You've misunderstood mate...

Yes - I read it wrong. My mistake.

As regards atheists such as yourself, this is the Religious Forum and you're hanging in it aren't you..

That doesn't make my (lack of) belief a religion.

 

[night912]

Answering posts when people post to me is not pushing anything. What am I supposed to do, ignore people who post to me? If I could I would but then I would feel guilty.

Looks like Trailblazer is filled with so much guilt for ignoring my posts that she concluded that the only way for her to not feel guilty anymore, is to keep on ignoring my posts.

I hate this more than life itself. What about that do you not understand? My life has been ruined by the Baha'i Faith and I can never get my life back and my house and property is in a shambles, after nine years on forums. I only do it because I consider it a duty. I'd much rather be in the mountains, anywhere but here.

For all those people who keep on denying it, here is the evidence proving that religion CAN f**ked up someone's life.

 

[Dropship]

As regards atheists such as yourself, this is the Religious Forum and you're hanging in it aren't you..

That doesn't make my (lack of) belief a religion.

Well why are you here?..

 

[Dropship]

Baha'u'llah explained the Purpose that for which the Messengers of God have been sent, to prepare all men for life in the spiritual world. He then explains how the sanctified souls who have passed on to the spiritual world profoundly affect this world.

But why should we believe that Baha'u'ullah bloke?
What did he say that's better than what Jesus said?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Well why are you here?..

To sometimes interrupt the flow of nonsense?

 

[samtonga43]

Ok. Apparently you don't understand what an agnostic and an atheist is. Did you actually watch the whole video? If you didn't, then you definitely need to watch it. In that video, Ehrman also said that he identifies as an atheist. He also explains the difference between the two, and why he is both an agnostic and an atheist.

So going back to your statement, "Ehrman is not an atheist." You are simply wrong.

You are correct. He is both atheist and agnostic.
(3.27 - 4.40)

 

[Dropship]

Well why are you here?..

To sometimes interrupt the flow of nonsense?

Well at least rubbing shoulders with Christians might help people learn a few things..