Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

In your second sentence you admitted to an irrational belief again. Sadly I doubt if you will understand it.

I said: "Has anyone ever proven that Moses did not exist?"

How is that admitting to an irrational belief?
Please bear in mind I did not say that Moses existed because nobody has ever proven that Moses did not exist. If I had said that it would have been illogical.

I said I believe that Moses existed because of what Baha'u'llah wrote about Moses, not because nobody has ever proven that Moses did not exist.

I know my logic.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I said: "Has anyone ever proven that Moses did not exist?"

How is that admitting to an irrational belief?
Please bear in mind I did not say that Moses existed because nobody has ever proven that Moses did not exist. If I had said that it would have been illogical.

I said I believe that Moses existed because of what Baha'u'llah wrote about Moses, not because nobody has ever proven that Moses did not exist.

I know my logic.

Because you have the question backwards.


You may understand your reasoning, but it does not qualify as "logic".

 

[CG Didymus]

For a Baha'i we know the Quran and the Bible are reliable Spiritual guides.

For the Bible,

"THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God."

Yes, so let's see how to properly sacrifice an animal to God. Oh yeah, Baha'is don't follow those laws. Then the creation story? Oh yeah, Baha'is believe that is metaphorical. And, what's that other thing? Oh yeah, Bahai's say that the Bible is not 100% authoritative. So Baha'is got to be more open and honest with what they really believe.

Hebrews is not to be trusted, in my view. The writer of Hebrews is fallible.

Now this is open and honest. Thanks, but as a Baha'i, technically, are you allowed to think that way about a book in the Christian Bible?

What part of the New Testament can be trusted? Each gospel tells a slightly different story. Then there's Paul. Most of the NT is his letters. He wasn't the messenger, but his writings are declared to be the "Word of God" by Christians. Then who wrote Hebrews? But then who wrote the gospels? So what are Baha'is supposed to think about the NT, and for that matter, the whole Bible? Is it the Word of God or the words of men... or a little of both.

And Tony, what about the contradictions in the gospel stories? What about the men that decided which books get into the NT? And some of those books had trouble making it in. It was men who wrote it. And men that voted to see which ones would become The Word of God. And how much of it did Jesus write?

 

[Truthseeker]

What part of the New Testament can be trusted? Each gospel tells a slightly different story.

It's true that each gospel tells a slightly different story , at least that's true of the synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, with somewhat different words by Jesus, and at different parts of the story sometimes. However the essential sense of what He said is conveyed.

John is a different kettle of fish. He says many things not in the other gospels, like, for instance how high His station is, which many Christians have interpreted to Him saying He is God. The events are different in many cases. There is, of course still the crucifixion, and also the resurrection. The knowledge of the disciples of what His station is comes much earlier in that gospel.

I asked my father, who was a Quaker minister, which version of when the disciples knew was most trustworthy, and he said the synoptic gospels. The Baha'i Writings seem to say the same thing. It is accepted by scholars that John was written later than the others. Also Matthew and Luke were based on the template of Mark, with another source called Q added in.

I believe that the gospel of John was written from a different source to give a different point of view from the others, to add supplemental material.

Then there's Paul. Most of the NT is his letters. He wasn't the messenger, but his writings are declared to be the "Word of God" by Christians. Then who wrote Hebrews?

There are different opinions from Baha'is, but I think sometimes Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit and sometimes not. He was a basically a good person, though not perfect. For instance he was insistent on his own point of view to the point where he said:

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Paul, "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Galatians - επιστολή προς τους Γαλάτες", 1:8

As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Paul, "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Galatians - επιστολή προς τους Γαλάτες", 1:9

This one statement helped lead to centuries of intolerance. It also didn't help that Constantine insisted 3 centuries later that Christians adopt one view, and call all else heresy. That was his way to unify the Roman empire.

Some letters purported to be from Paul were not by him but from anonymous people that used his name to advance their point of view.

Then who wrote Hebrews?

No one knows who wrote Hebrews.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, so let's see how to properly sacrifice an animal to God. Oh yeah, Baha'is don't follow those laws. Then the creation story? Oh yeah, Baha'is believe that is metaphorical. And, what's that other thing? Oh yeah, Bahai's say that the Bible is not 100% authoritative. So Baha'is got to be more open and honest with what they really believe.

After a few years and most likely in the 100,000's of posts in hundreds of OP's, I think what the Baha'i beleive, has more than been shared openly and honestly.

Regards Tony

 

[Truthseeker]

Now this is open and honest. Thanks, but as a Baha'i, technically, are you allowed to think that way about a book in the Christian Bible?

Of course!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And Tony, what about the contradictions in the gospel stories? What about the men that decided which books get into the NT? And some of those books had trouble making it in. It was men who wrote it. And men that voted to see which ones would become The Word of God. And how much of it did Jesus write?

I do not see any of that matters now CG.

Baha'u'llah has said it is a reliable source of spiritual guidance that contains the word of God.

For me, I use the verses and lessons that I see can make me a better person and help me to understand all God given Faiths.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

What makes you think that the founder of the Jewish faith was a real person?

Yes, Jewish stories tellers passing on the legends and myths of their people. I think they were real people.

I believe that because of what Baha'u'llah wrote about Moses.

And is what Baha'u'llah writes about the stories of Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses consistent with the Biblical versions? No. Then on some thread some Baha'i was talking about there being two David's? What's that all about?

Well, as you well know, all these inconsistencies bother me. It's too easy for Baha'u'llah to make up an alternative "truth" and version of Bible stories and characters, and there is no way to prove him wrong... so therefore he must be right? Because he's a manifestation of God and knows what is right?

But, you know what, that's been done before. The Baha'i Faith isn't the first. Christianity took the Hebrew Bible and made a few changes and interpretations and "proved" the Jesus was not only the Messiah but as God. Then Islam did it to Christianity. But then the Baha'i Faith does it to all the other major religions. And does the same thing. It makes a few changes and some new interpretations, and, to Baha'is, clearly shows how all of those other religion were a progression leading up to Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith. Just like God, Baha'is can believe that, but they can't prove it.

 

[Truthseeker]

Yes, so let's see how to properly sacrifice an animal to God. Oh yeah, Baha'is don't follow those laws.

Hasn't anybody told you by now that there are different laws in different ages according to the conditions of those ages? I thought you were confused, now I wonder if I was wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

I told you I would get back and finally the storm on that other thread has let up so here I am.

It is literally an example of where science and religion are attempting to describe the same thing and contradicting each other. In what way is it NOT a good example?

Science does not know how the universe was created, science only has some theories. True, religion and science differ regarding creation of the universe, but it is not really a contradiction because science has not proven anything about how the universe was created and religion has not proven anything either. Science has theories and religion has beliefs and obviously they are different.

What on earth made you think I was demanding you answer for YECs? In any case, if you claim that God created the universe, then you are indeed overlapping with science.

I’ll grant you there is some overlap there.

You're taking this rather personally, aren't you?
Me pointing out the use of a logical fallacy is not dehumanizing to the person I say committed that fallacy.

No, but I just don’t like the constant haranguing – you did this, you did that – because it causes disharmony and it required that a person defend themselves.

Then why do we need two different tools (according to you) to measure this one reality?

Because we cannot measure spiritual reality with science and we cannot measure physical reality with religion. Thus both religion and science are necessary for humans to survive, thrive and progress.

Why would our needs change?

The world changes over time so why wouldn’t our needs change? Do you really think that humanity has the same needs it had back in the biblical times? This is a new age, the age of science and technology and our physical needs are very different. Our spiritual needs are the same but we have to live life in the material world. Social, economic, and political systems have changed and the environment and physical landscape is very different than it was back in the biblical times. Ever heard of climate change?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, Jewish stories tellers passing on the legends and myths of their people. I think they were real people.

Why? If so do you accept Paul Bunyan as a real character? How about Pecos Bill? There may have been people that influence the stories, but that does not make them real characters.

Did you watch the movie The Great Escape? They tried to make it clear that the actors in the movie were generally not representing real characters at the prison camp, but usually composites of several characters. There were simply too many that had a role to accurately do this in a two hour movie. The stories of various characters in the Bible ae often incomplete. There may have been a real person that influence that beginning of those stories, but I would be willing to be that if it were possible most would be totally unrecognizable when one compared what they did to what was claimed.

 

[Truthseeker]

Well, as you well know, all these inconsistencies bother me.

I very much doubt they bother you.

 

[CG Didymus]

Of course!

Okay, but there must be a point to where a Baha'i can't go around saying just any old thing about the Scriptures of the other religions. Plus, it doesn't fit with the quote Tony posted. But, then again, I don't see how or why a Baha'i would use very much of the Bible as a "reliable" spiritual guide?

 

[CG Didymus]

Why? If so do you accept Paul Bunyan as a real character? How about Pecos Bill? There may have been people that influence the stories, but that does not make them real characters.

Did you watch the movie The Great Escape? They tried to make it clear that the actors in the movie were generally not representing real characters at the prison camp, but usually composites of several characters. There were simply too many that had a role to accurately do this in a two hour movie. The stories of various characters in the Bible ae often incomplete. There may have been a real person that influence that beginning of those stories, but I would be willing to be that if it were possible most would be totally unrecognizable when one compared what they did to what was claimed.

Oh, the story tellers were real, not the characters in the story. But, I believe the story tellers told the story as if the characters were real, especially the main character, God. And, with someone like Jesus, they might have been real, but the writers embellished the story to make Jesus the greatest thing that ever lived.

 

[Truthseeker]

Okay, but there must be a point to where a Baha'i can't go around saying just any old thing about the Scriptures of the other religions. Plus, it doesn't fit with the quote Tony posted.

Different Baha'i have different points of view, and different emphasis. We are free to have our own opinions and own points of view.

 

[Trailblazer]

“That's the great thing about the Baha'i Faith. It's true, even if you don't believe it.”

However, you can not show anything which indicates that Baha'i is true and other possible explanations are not true.

Science can.

Other possible explanations for what?

It’s true that science can show that there are not other possible explanations for physical things, but science has no explanations for spiritual things.

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not see any of that matters now CG.

Baha'u'llah has said it is a reliable source of spiritual guidance that contains the word of God.

For me, I use the verses and lessons that I see can make me a better person and help me to understand all God given Faiths.

Regards Tony

Yes, like trust and obey God or he will strike you dead? Or, believe in Jesus or God will send you to hell? The spiritual guidance is do good, or an invisible God is going to punish you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, like trust and obey God or he will strike you dead? Or, believe in Jesus or God will send you to hell? The spiritual guidance is do good, or an invisible God is going to punish you.

Except I do not see the Baha'i God doing that. What drives me nuts about this debate is that she is trying to defend Baha'i based upon its weakest points. It shows a bit of fundamentalist fervor.

Baha'i seems to have superior morals to Christianity to me. That is what the defense should be based upon. Not trying to almost deify the founder of Baha'i.

 

[Trailblazer]

So it doesn't do what you claimed it was here to do. It's almost like whoever wrote them had no idea what was coming, just like a guy who had no contact at all with an all-knowing deity...

Baha’u’llah knew everything that was coming and put in place what will be necessary for humans to deal with it when the time comes. Baha’u’llah made provisions for the Universal House of Justice (UHJ) who can legislate on matters that are not expressly revealed in His Writings, so if advances in science start to impinge upon human moral behavior the UHJ can legislate on those.

 

[CG Didymus]

I very much doubt they bother you.

Would you believe they upset me? Anyway, I'm talking about the usual things I complain about, the resurrection of Jesus and that some Hindus and Buddhists believe in reincarnation. I'm okay with the different religions having different beliefs, because I think the people in that culture made up their religions... and there prophets.... and there Gods. And Baha'is almost go that far. But, instead, what some Baha'is have said is that "originally" the manifestations all told a very similar story, but then the people added things in and misinterpreted it. Close, but a little different than what I think happened. Or, like with Jesus, I'm okay with the story being based on a real person, but then the story got embellished a lot... things like a virgin birth and the resurrection.