Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Muffled]

What criteria? I never said it was evidence for my criteria, I said it is evidence that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God and that Baha'u'llah is evidence that there is a God since He was a Messenger of God. That is all I ever said.

Objective connection? What would you expect to see if God existed? How would we know?

I believe the evidence is that the B man said some things that are false. No messenger of God would have false information.

 

[Muffled]

Have you undertaken an honest and just search of the Bab to draw conclusion?

2 Timothy 2:15 "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth."

Regards Tony

I believe I have read the bios of the B men. Are you saying the Bab was a Jew?

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe the evidence is that the B man said some things that are false.

Such as?

 

[Muffled]

There is no valid evidence for God.

I believe I am the evidence that there is God.

 

[Muffled]

Such as?

I believe it was the statement that reincarnation doesn't exist.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I believe I am the evidence that there is God.

That is a belief. It does not appear to be evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe it was the statement that reincarnation doesn't exist.

I believe that statement is true, not false. There is nothing in the Bible that indicates that reincarnation exists.

 

[ratiocinator]

I believe I am the evidence that there is God.

Perhaps you need to understand what 'evidence' means?

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe that statement is true, not false. There is nothing in the Bible that indicates that reincarnation exists.

And do we believe the Bible is the literal truth? If we are going to question the truth or falsehood of reincarnation, then we should be looking to those beliefs held by some Hindus and Buddhists that support it. Where do they get the teachings from? Is there objective evidence that people have lived past lives and have returned into a different body? Or, is it just a belief of some people in those religions and has no proof?

 

[CG Didymus]

Hebrews is not to be trusted, in my view. The writer of Hebrews is fallible.

What part of the New Testament can be trusted? Each gospel tells a slightly different story. Then there's Paul. Most of the NT is his letters. He wasn't the messenger, but his writings are declared to be the "Word of God" by Christians. Then who wrote Hebrews? But then who wrote the gospels? So what are Baha'is supposed to think about the NT, and for that matter, the whole Bible? Is it the Word of God or the words of men... or a little of both.

 

[CG Didymus]

The fact remains, Christianity has been leading the pack for 1400 years, and what might or might not happen in the future is just speculation and guesswork..

Sure, if you add up all the sects and denominations that call themselves "Christian." Are there some that you don't believe have the "true" gospel? Or, are they all okay on teaching the truth about God and Jesus?

 

[Trailblazer]

And do we believe the Bible is the literal truth? If we are going to question the truth or falsehood of reincarnation, then we should be looking to those beliefs held by some Hindus and Buddhists that support it. Where do they get the teachings from? Is there objective evidence that people have lived past lives and have returned into a different body? Or, is it just a belief of some people in those religions and has no proof?

I go with the Bible because I consider it more reliable that ancient scriptures of the Hindus and Buddhists that were written by men who never even knew the Founders of these religions, and such so-called scriptures were written centuries after the Founders of the religions walked the earth. How accurately can those scriptures reflect the Founders of those religions?

In general I am going to trust the scriptures of the Abrahamic religions because I believe they are more accurate than the others. I do not believe it is just by coincidence that Baha'u'llah refers to the Bible and to the Qur'an and does not even mention those other religions. Baha'u'llah not only championed the Qur'an and He also said that the Bible is God's greatest testimony to His creatures.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I go with the Bible because I consider it more reliable that ancient scriptures of the Hindus and Buddhists that were written by men who never even knew the Founders of these religions, and such so-called scriptures were written centuries after the Founders of the religions walked the earth. How accurately can those scriptures reflect the Founders of those religions?

In general I am going to trust the scriptures of the Abrahamic religions because I believe they are more accurate than the others. I do not believe it is just by coincidence that Baha'u'llah refers to the Bible and to the Qur'an and does not even mention those other religions. Baha'u'llah not only championed the Qur'an and He also said that the Bible is God's greatest testimony to His creatures.

What makes you think that the founder of the Jewish faith was a real person?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What part of the New Testament can be trusted? Each gospel tells a slightly different story. Then there's Paul. Most of the NT is his letters. He wasn't the messenger, but his writings are declared to be the "Word of God" by Christians. Then who wrote Hebrews? But then who wrote the gospels? So what are Baha'is supposed to think about the NT, and for that matter, the whole Bible? Is it the Word of God or the words of men... or a little of both.

For a Baha'i we know the Quran and the Bible are reliable Spiritual guides.

For the Bible,

"THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God."
‘Abdu’l-Bahá Abbás.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

What makes you think that the founder of the Jewish faith was a real person?

I believe that because of what Baha'u'llah wrote about Moses. Since I believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God and He wrote His own scriptures, whatever He wrote is the bottom line for me.

The Kitáb-i-Íqán is considered the second most important work that Baha'u'llah revealed. In it Baha'u'llah describes the succession of Prophets (Messengers) who have come to earth, and He explains something about each one. Abraham and Moses were two such Prophets. However it is important to note that just because these Prophets existed that does not mean they did everything that is recorded in the Bible. I believe that the only things we can know for certain that they did is what is in the Baha'i Writings.

“Among the Prophets was Abraham, the Friend of God. Ere He manifested Himself, Nimrod dreamed a dream. Thereupon, he summoned the soothsayers, who informed him of the rise of a star in the heaven. Likewise, there appeared a herald who announced throughout the land the coming of Abraham.

After Him came Moses, He Who held converse with God. The soothsayers of His time warned Pharaoh in these terms: “A star hath risen in the heaven, and lo! it foreshadoweth the conception of a Child Who holdeth your fate and the fate of your people in His hand.” In like manner, there appeared a sage who, in the darkness of the night, brought tidings of joy unto the people of Israel, imparting consolation to their souls, and assurance to their hearts. To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 62-63

Baha'u'llah concludes that paragraph by saying that He did not wish to dwell on the past and He considers that to be a grave mistake and a grievous transgression. The reason that He said that is because we are now living in a new Day of God and we now have new scriptures that pertain to this age.

"Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee, that haply the poor of the earth may attain the shores of the sea of wealth, the ignorant be led unto the ocean of divine knowledge, and they that thirst for understanding partake of the Salsabíl of divine wisdom. Otherwise, this servant regardeth the consideration of such records a grave mistake and a grievous transgression."
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 63

 

[Subduction Zone]

I believe that because of what Baha'u'llah wrote about Moses. Since I believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God and He wrote His own scriptures, whatever He wrote is the bottom line for me.

The Kitáb-i-Íqán is considered the second most important work that Baha'u'llah revealed. In it Baha'u'llah describes the succession of Prophets (Messengers) who have come to earth, and He explains something about each one. Abraham and Moses were two such Prophets. However it is important to note that just because these Prophets existed that does not mean they did everything that is recorded in the Bible. I believe that the only things we can know for certain that they did is what is in the Baha'i Writings.

“Among the Prophets was Abraham, the Friend of God. Ere He manifested Himself, Nimrod dreamed a dream. Thereupon, he summoned the soothsayers, who informed him of the rise of a star in the heaven. Likewise, there appeared a herald who announced throughout the land the coming of Abraham.

After Him came Moses, He Who held converse with God. The soothsayers of His time warned Pharaoh in these terms: “A star hath risen in the heaven, and lo! it foreshadoweth the conception of a Child Who holdeth your fate and the fate of your people in His hand.” In like manner, there appeared a sage who, in the darkness of the night, brought tidings of joy unto the people of Israel, imparting consolation to their souls, and assurance to their hearts. To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 62-63

Baha'u'llah concludes that paragraph by saying that He did not wish to dwell on the past and He considers that to be a grave mistake and a grievous transgression. The reason that He said that is because we are now living in a new Day of God and we now have new scriptures that pertain to this age.

"Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee, that haply the poor of the earth may attain the shores of the sea of wealth, the ignorant be led unto the ocean of divine knowledge, and they that thirst for understanding partake of the Salsabíl of divine wisdom. Otherwise, this servant regardeth the consideration of such records a grave mistake and a grievous transgression."
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 63

Then it appears that you have gone for a rather irrational belief. Since so much of what was written was poetic why wouldn't a reference to a mythical character be a poetic one as well?

 

[Trailblazer]

Then it appears that you have gone for a rather irrational belief.

Why is it an irrational belief? Has anyone ever proven that Moses did not exist? I don't think so. Perhaps scholars have opinions but that is all they are. There is no reason to think that there would be archaeological evidence for Moses given He lived so long ago. The Old Testament is the record and even if it is not entirely accurate and much of it is just fictional stories that does not mean Moses never existed.

Since so much of what was written was poetic why wouldn't a reference to a mythical character be a poetic one as well?

What does the style of language have to do with the content?

The Kitab-i-Iqan (the Book of Certitude) was not intended to be poetic, it was written with a very serious intent. Did Baha'u'llah sound like He was talking about a mythical character?

You believe Moses was a mythical character so your own confirmation bias disallows you from reading what Baha'u'llah wrote and taking it seriously.

 

[Truthseeker]

Alright try this quote of Jesus himself in which he makes it clear that his job was done, he doesn't say anything about prophets coming later-

"Jesus said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit" ( John 19:28-30)

His job was done, which means He wasn't coming back in person. This quote says absolutely nothing about other Prophets. You need to reason this out.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why is it an irrational belief? Has anyone ever proven that Moses did not exist? I don't think so. Perhaps scholars have opinions but that is all they are. There is no reason to think that there would be archaeological evidence for Moses given He lived so long ago. The Old Testament is the record and even if it is not entirely accurate and much of it is just fictional stories that does not mean Moses never existed.

What does the style of language have to do with the content?

The Kitab-i-Iqan (the Book of Certitude) was not intended to be poetic, it was written with a very serious intent. Did Baha'u'llah sound like He was talking about a mythical character?

You believe Moses was a mythical character so your own confirmation bias disallows you from reading what Baha'u'llah wrote and taking it seriously.

In your second sentence you admitted to an irrational belief again. Sadly I doubt if you will understand it.

 

[Tiberius]

I believe I am the evidence that there is God.

Care to explain?