Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Truthseeker]

As for the alleged "prophets" who came after Jesus such as Mohammed and Joseph Smith, I don't accept they were true prophets for the simple reason that Jesus was the very last "messenger"-

"God spoke in times past by the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son" (Hebrews 1:1/2)

Hebrews is not to be trusted, in my view. The writer of Hebrews is fallible.

 

[ratiocinator]

Somebody accused Christians of "blind faith" but that doesn't apply to moi or to many other Christians; rather we look at all the facts and choose to put our money on Jesus because he's the safest bet around...

What facts would those be?

 

[ratiocinator]

The fact remains, Christianity has been leading the pack for 1400 years...

We should also note that you can't deduce truth from popularity; argumentum ad populum is a fallacy (that means a basic mistake in thinking logically) and that 'Christianity' is not exactly a single set of beliefs, there are many denominations, cults, and sects, many of whom don't regard the others as 'real Christians' and, historically, have been willing to kill each other to make the point.

 

[ratiocinator]

However, it is important to point out that the previous Messengers never contradicted each other.

According to their followers today and their scriptures, they did - and that is all the actual evidence we have.

What you observe are religions that contradict each other but that is because they do not fully understand what their Messengers taught. the older religions have been corrupted by man, so much so that they no longer reflect what the Messenger of that religion revealed.

Your evidence for this is... missing.

The rational approach is to look at all the evidence for the latest Messenger of God, Baha’u’llah, and use your rational mind in order to determine if His claims were valid.

Again, this is circular, it is not a rational thing to do at all unless I first accept most of your conclusions: that there is a god, there are messengers, and that the old religions have been corrupted. It is not rational at all to somebody who sees no reason to take any religion seriously in the first place.

And in all that, you totally ignored my question. Here it is again: In what way are they evidence? Where is the objective path from these people (who contradicted each other) to a real god?

I never said that God could not do that.

Yes you did, you said "God cannot provide direct objective evidence of His Being..." Look, this isn't difficult, so I've no idea why you keep contradicting yourself. An omnipotent god obviously could provide objective evidence that it was real (by some manipulation of the world or direct communication into our brains, or whatever, the details don't matter).

According to this passage, God wants everyone to search for Him and determine if He exists by using their own innate intelligence and using their free will to make the decision to believe.

So god wants us to be irrational because there is no prima facie case that there is any god to search for. I already know this about your version of god.

So, let me see if I understand. If God does not do what you want Him to do then God is an evil, trickster, unjust, uncaring monster.

As I already explained, it's got nothing to do with what I want. I couldn't care less what a god that is hiding does. It's your own description of what it wants, that makes it an evil, trickster, unjust, uncaring monster.

This is where you make your mistake. You assume that all believers are superstitious and overly credulous and that is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization and the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions. Just because some believers are that way that does not mean that all believers are that way. You also assume that only atheists are rational but you do not know that there are also rational believers.

Actually people are more complicated than that. Perhaps what I should have said is that your god wants only people who take a superstitious and overly credulous approach to the existence of god. They may be perfectly rational in other respects. Some atheists, of course, may be completely irrational. Lack of belief could be for rational or irrational reasons, or for no reason at all.

I have yet, however, in all my experience, to hear a rational reason to take any god seriously (apart from versions of god that are a rather pointless relabelling of something that exists), let alone the bizarre monster you are describing here.

Why do you think that people are going to suffer and die unless they get an uncorrupted message?

I was talking about those who have already suffered and died because of people believing what you claim are corrupted messages and persecuting and killing other people for having the 'wrong god'. This would all be the direct result of your god's silly and cruel game of hide-and-seek.

 

[Dropship]

Nope. Your map is very misleading..

If you don't like the Encyc Britannia map I posted, try this Pew one below, or post another map yourself..

 

[ratiocinator]

If you don't like the Encyc Britannia map I posted, try this Pew one below, or post another map yourself..

Doesn't change the facts that:

1. Land area is not the same as population.
2. Popularity is not an indication of truth; argumentum ad populum is a fallacy (irrational thinking).
3. Christianity itself is riddled with division.

 

[Dropship]

"God spoke in times past by the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son" (Hebrews 1:1/2)

Hebrews is not to be trusted, in my view. The writer of Hebrews is fallible.

Alright try this quote of Jesus himself in which he makes it clear that his job was done, he doesn't say anything about prophets coming later-

"Jesus said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit" ( John 19:28-30)

 

[Dropship]

Somebody accused Christians of "blind faith" but that doesn't apply to moi or to many other Christians; rather we look at all the facts and choose to put our money on Jesus because he's the safest bet around..

What facts would those be?

How many eyewitnesses would you like?-
"Large crowds from Galilee, the Ten Cities, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him" (Matt 4:25)
"And the common people heard him gladly" (Mark 12 :37)
Heck he pulled crowds of over 5000 and 4000 at two gigs alone (Matt 14:13, Matt 15:32),
and his 37 miracles brought the house down..

He didn't skulk in some underground hideout, he went on the road for 3 long years in front of the people and the Roman Army, that's a lot of eyeballs -
“I've spoken openly to the world..I said nothing in secret" (John 18:20)
"Jesus went through all the towns and villages" (Matt 9:35)

 

[ratiocinator]

How many eyewitnesses would you like?-
"Large crowds from Galilee, the Ten Cities, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him" (Matt 4:25)
"And the common people heard him gladly" (Mark 12 :37)
Heck he pulled crowds of over 5000 and 4000 at two gigs alone (Matt 14:13, Matt 15:32),
and his 37 miracles brought the house down..

“I've spoken openly to the world..I said nothing in secret" (John 18:20)
"Jesus went through all the towns and villages" (Matt 9:35)

I asked about facts, not the claims of your favourite religious book.

Also lots of people turning up to some religious preacher's talks is not evidence of the truth of what they said.

 

[Dropship]

..'Christianity' is not exactly a single set of beliefs, there are many denominations, cults, and sects, many of whom don't regard the others as 'real Christians' many of whom don't regard the others as 'real Christians' and, historically, have been willing to kill each other to make the point.

Yes,anybody who deviates from Jesus is a "spiritual pervert" but they can't get under the bible's radar-
"If anyone preaches a perverted gospel they're accursed" (Gal 1:6-9)

I don't want to kill them, I simply cross the street to avoid them, although I do enjoy ripping them to shreds in internet forums..

 

[Dropship]

..Christianity itself is riddled with division.

Yes there are plenty of crackpot cults and sects about, they'e "Vanity Cults" who like to think they know more than the rest of us poor slobs, you should see me hammering them around internetland..

 

[ratiocinator]

Yes,anybody who deviates from Jesus is a "spiritual pervert" but they can't get under the bible's radar-
"If anyone preaches a perverted gospel they're accursed" (Gal 1:6-9)

There you go undermining your own claims of the popularity of Christianity. And, of course, what a "perverted gospel" is depends on which group you talk to. That's one of the problems of trying to rely on an incoherent, disjointed, often self-contradictory collection of old books, rather than evidence and reasoning.

I don't want to kill them, I simply cross the street to avoid them, although I do enjoy ripping them to shreds in internet forums..

Seen no evidence of this yet.....

 

[Dropship]

I asked about facts, not the claims of your favourite religious book.

Speaking of books-

 

[ratiocinator]

Speaking of books-

View attachment 56229

You are good for a laugh, I'll give you that!

Evasion noted and, of course, atheism is basically a lack of belief, so it stands to reason that there's not much to write about it directly, but if you think there are no books on the subject (which are more about why people reject religion), where have you been?

 

[Dropship]

..Seen no evidence of this yet.....

If you mean me ripping crackpot christian cultists to shreds, I can only assume they know my reputation from 19 years of putting the boot into them on other boards and are therefore giving me a wide berth in RF, or perhaps they're wisely huddling together in the DIR forums where I can't get at 'em..

 

[Dropship]

..And, of course, what a "perverted gospel" is depends on which group you talk to....

That's easy, if they talk sh*t they're a crackpot "christian" cult..

 

[ratiocinator]

That's easy, if they talk sh*t they're a crackpot cult..

Which is no different to saying "perverted gospel". My comments stand. You don't really seem to get reasoning, logic, and evidence...

 

[Dropship]

PS- not only do I wipe the floor with crackpot "christian" cultists, but I also put the boot into all nonchristian religions too, and I take-

 

[Mock Turtle]

That's easy, if they talk sh*t they're a crackpot "christian" cult..

So, does that include all those who differ from your beliefs?

 

[Dropship]

..if they talk sh*t they're a crackpot "christian" cult..

So, does that include all those who differ from your beliefs?

My "beliefs" are Jesus-centred, so if anybody twists his message they'll get my boot..
"Ignorant people distort things,to their own destruction" (2 Pet 3:16/17)