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Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So you don't know what a spirit being is. And a spirit being is unknowable.
But wait, you claimed that, "God is a spirit being." How could you possibly say anything or anyone is a spirit being, if a spirit being is unknowable and undefinable? So you don't know what it is but you know it exists even though it's unknowable. That makes no sense. Do you see why I asked the question now?
I already explained how we know. It is in the Bible and the Baha'i Writings. Scriptures are the ONLY WAY we can ever know anything about God. Baha'u'llah wrote that God is a mystery, unknowable and undefinable, and that is how we know that.

“No one else besides Thee hath, at any time, been able to fathom Thy mystery, or befittingly to extol Thy greatness. Unsearchable and high above the praise of men wilt Thou remain for ever. There is none other God but Thee, the Inaccessible, the Omnipotent, the Omniscient, the Holy of Holies.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

Baha'u'llah also wrote that God is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men and God can only be known through His Manifestation.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Can you read? I said: These are not claims, they are beliefs.

I do not make claims about something I cannot prove.

I do not know what a spirit being is, that is unknowable. The essence of God is unknowable. All we can know are some of God's attributes and God's will for us and we know that from what the Messenger of God reveals. That is not a claim, it is a belief.

I already answered that. You cannot know they exist you can only believe they exist, according to scriptures of religions.
If you want to say that you need to clarify what are just your beliefs. Without a qualifier a general statement of the sort that you have been making are claims.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I never said that it is impossible for God to communicate with the Messengers, but it is impossible for God to communicate with ordinary people and the reason is because ordinary people only have a human nature, they do not have a spiritual nature. Messengers of God are a different order of creation than ordinary men because they have a twofold nature that ordinary humans do not possess. That is why it is possible for them to understand communication from God through the Holy Spirit. No ordinary human could ever understand communication from God if God communicated to them directly, and that is 'one reason' God never communicates to ordinary people, only to His Messengers.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

You said: "If God cannot manifest physically he cannot communicate."

You hit the nail right on the head! That is very good logical reasoning and you are the first atheist who ever figured that out so you get the door prize! :D

That is exactly what God does. God manifests physically so He can communicate to humans. Messengers of God are also Manifestations of God, as both descriptors refer to the same entity.

Jesus was God who was manifested in the flesh and communicated to humans but God did not become flesh, as Christians believe.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

All the Messengers of God were God who manifested in the flesh and that is why they are also referred to as Manifestations of God.

However, being manifested in the flesh is not the same as being incarnated in the flesh. The excerpt below from a longer article explains the difference between a Manifestation of God and an incarnation of God (bold emphasis mine).

“The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God…..

One can argue that Bahá'u'lláh is asserting that epistemologically the Manifestations are God, for they are the perfect embodiment of all we can know about God; but ontologically they are not God, for they are not identical with God's essence. Perhaps this is the meaning of the words attributed to Jesus in the gospel of John: 'If you had known me, you would have known my Father also' (John 14:7) and 'he who has seen me has seen the Father (John 14:9)…..

The New Testament, similarly, contains statements where Jesus describes Himself as God, and others where He makes a distinction between Himself and God. For example, 'I and the Father are One (John 10:30); and 'the Father is in me, and I am in the Father (John 1038); but on the other hand, 'the Father is greater than I (John 14:28); and 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19). These statements do not contradict, but are complementary if one assumes they assert an epistemological oneness with God, but an ontological separateness from the Unknowable Essence.”

Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings
More nonsensical self contradicting word salad. If you want to claim that, and please note that you had no qualifiers here, you take on a huge burden of proof.

How can God communicate with anyone if he does not do so physically?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If you want to say that you need to clarify what are just your beliefs. Without a qualifier a general statement of the sort that you have been making are claims.
I have been starting to add that qualifier but it won't matter to some people who will continue to insist I am making claims. I am not referring to you, I am referring to other atheists who refuse to accept that my beliefs are not claims.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
More nonsensical self contradicting word salad. If you want to claim that, and please note that you had no qualifiers here, you take on a huge burden of proof.

How can God communicate with anyone if he does not do so physically?
I am not claiming any of that because I cannot prove it.
In that post I explained exactly how I believe (not claim) God communicates, through a Messenger/Manifestation of God.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I am not claiming any of that because I cannot prove it.
In that post I explained exactly how I believe (not claim) God communicates, through a Messenger/Manifestation of God.

And mere belief is irrational. I can in the same manner believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. There are others ways to justify your faith rather than trying to turn your belief into something that it cannot be.

And I need to point this out to you again, and the Wiki article that you linked supports me on this. The various logical fallacies that you rely on do not make your beliefs wrong. Logical fallacies do not prove an idea to be wrong. They only show that the conclusion that one has made is not justified using the arguments that one has used.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
In the opinion of anyone that understands the concept of evidence God exists.
LOL! No, sorry but that is not the case.

Once again you should work on your epistemology. Merely wanting to believe does not make a belief correct. And so far that is all that you have managed to display.

By the way, where is the evidence for a god? For any god? Not just yours. I do not think that you will be able to find any evidence for a god.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
In the opinion of anyone that understands the concept of evidence God exists.


That seems like a no true Scotsman fallacy and an Argument form assertion fallacy.

Seriously, does it not worry you that so many of your claims and arguments contain or are based on known logical fallacies?

When I was 35 years old I made a claim in an internet forum, and it was explained to me that my assertion was a bare appeal to numbers, or an argumentum ad populum fallacy. I was annoyed and proceeded to investigate that claim, and it was obvious it was correct, then I investigated what this meant, and from there I learned as many known common logical fallacies as I could find. It's been over 20 years, but I never forgot that lesson, and denying it, or lying to myself only meant I would perpetuate my ignorance, and that was something I could not countenance.

I have a middling intellect, and a very mediocre formal education, but that does not mean I cannot learn, and more importantly it does not mean I have to be closed minded.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
By the way, where is the evidence for a god?
“He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

All of the Manifestations of God were evidence that God exists. That is not a claim, it is a belief. :D
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
All of the Manifestations of God were evidence that God exists. That is not a claim, it is a belief.

A belief is the affirmation of a claim, that is axiomatic. if I "said" that I believed you had made a claim, does that mean you can't object because I had not made a claim?

C'mon now, this is getting a little silly, if any belief requires that level of semantics, one should surely take a step back.

The logical fallacies are there for all to see, whatever beliefs one holds a priori, and while one can choose to ignore logic, the principles are unequivocal, as are known fallacies in informal logic. The consequences of both are your CLAIMS, are irrational...by definition.

Be open minded, and investigate those claims for yourself, it will take a lot less time than reading religious texts, and what could you possibly have to lose?
 
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Sheldon

Veteran Member
No, because I have no claims or arguments and I commit no fallacies.
I did not assert anything, I just stated an opinion.

Assert
verb

1. state a fact or belief confidently and forcefully.

Dear oh dear, who are you hoping to fool with this ludicrous sophistry? Semantics are something I have always found fascinating, but this is just silly now, what do you hope to achieve? We are all just people, trying to share ideas, but though I have a mediocre education, and a middling intellect, do you really expect me to ignore the sophistry here, or the logical fallacies?

You can fact check anything anyone says in seconds yourself for goodness sake...
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
No, because I have no claims or arguments and I commit no fallacies.
I did not assert anything, I just stated an opinion.
***

OK. I am going to state my opinion.

You seem to think that you know everything there is to know on the subject of logical fallacies, and what words mean according to the dictionary. Tb, you don't. You really don't.

You tie yourself in knots while attempting to be rational and what emerges from your keyboard is mostly gobbledygook.

Furthermore, you are doing yourself and your religion no favours.

One of my favourite poets said this:
"People who lean on logic and philosophy and rational exposition end by starving the best part of the mind". William Butler Yeats

Remember, I am just stating my opinion.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
I already explained how we know. It is in the Bible and the Baha'i Writings. Scriptures are the ONLY WAY we can ever know anything about God. Baha'u'llah wrote that God is a mystery, unknowable and undefinable, and that is how we know that.

MrB was wrong. Scriptures are not the only way we can ever know anything about God. God makes Himself known to many people BEFORE they have read any Scripture.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
It is still unrealistic and illogical to expect religious beliefs to be testable and verifiable the same way scientific things are since religion is DIFFERENT from science.
When born again Christians tell you that Jesus rose physically from the dead and that Satan is real, what do you tell them?
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
That is NOT my position at all, it is a big fat straw man.
What is your problem, that you feel a need to speak for me. That is so disrespectful.

You are speaking for yourself, Tb. Here's what you said...
"I believe that the Baha'i Faith is true because I think it is true and I think it is true because of the evidence".
 
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