ATHEIST ONLY: Atheist View On Abortion

[Willamena]

I agree... This post makes me a little confused as to your view...I thought you were pro-choice. Can you clarify?

I cannot see any other view for myself than to be neither pro-choice nor pro-life, and hence both. I come down on the side of a larger picture of humanity.

 

[Magic Man]

I guess I can't really argue with that. We just have different views and I consider abortion to be wrong and obviously you think it's ok.

Nope. I think it's acceptable. I still disagree when a woman has unprotected sex and gets pregnant, with her decision to have an abortion, but if that's her decision, it's probably the best one for the child.

Obviously this is not the same but consider that you were deaf-blind or severly paralysed. I know it's a horrible situation, but consider that you wanted to live. What if your carer/parent found that it was just too much work for them to have you around anymore so you were killed because they thought it was the best thing to do. Is this ok?

GhK.

You're already a human at that point.

 

[Willamena]

Obviously this is not the same but consider that you were deaf-blind or severly paralysed. I know it's a horrible situation, but consider that you wanted to live. What if your carer/parent found that it was just too much work for them to have you around anymore so you were killed because they thought it was the best thing to do. Is this ok?

Depends on what you mean by "ok", but no, it's not okay with me because I value my life. If it's someone else we are talking about, then it's their decisions to make about their lives, and that includes their mistakes to make.

Taking on a role of limiting someone's choices, and hence the possiblity of their making a mistake by choosing something other than what 'I' want them to choose, is adopting the role of a parent to a child, and using the law as discipline. It robs them of their adult status, and even takes responsiblity for their actions. Both those results are unacceptable. People have the right to decide their own lives and make their own fate.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

What if you protect yourself, and you still get pregnant?

I don't think the child is paying for that incompetence. I think of it more like two people who go out on a couple of dates. They decide after two dates that it's not going to work, and so they call it quits. That way the hurt feelings and problems are minimized. If they continued to go out for 3 or 4 months or more, then they create problems when they do break up.



Yes, it does, but you do realize how many children are out there right now for adoption, right? And how many potential parents for those kids? It's not a good ratio.

Thank you....You said what I was going to say..

 

[GiantHouseKey]

Thank you....You said what I was going to say..

Thank you for your contribution

Depends on what you mean by "ok", but no, it's not okay with me because I value my life. If it's someone else we are talking about, then it's their decisions to make about their lives, and that includes their mistakes to make.

I understand that the question I asked is not directly related, but consider it in the same way. Somebody unable to adequately give concent to their own death should be protected. We have no way of knowing if these hypothetical people want to live or die, but the decision has to be made for them. It's the same with abortion: A foetus cannot say 'Look mum I don't want to be terminated let me live' and so it's therefore acceptable to kill it? I remember the archbishop of undine saying 'It is no sin to beat a dog to death'. Just because a dog cannot say that it wants to live, should that mean it is ok to kill it? Of course not, and so is it acceptable to say the same of humans?

Humanity, the 'divine' race, unequipped even to deal with the most basic of tasks: Survival.

GhK.

 

[Willamena]

Somebody unable to adequately give concent to their own death should be protected. We have no way of knowing if these hypothetical people want to live or die, but the decision has to be made for them. It's the same with abortion: A foetus cannot say 'Look mum I don't want to be terminated let me live' and so it's therefore acceptable to kill it? I remember the archbishop of undine saying 'It is no sin to beat a dog to death'. Just because a dog cannot say that it wants to live, should that mean it is ok to kill it? Of course not, and so is it acceptable to say the same of humans?

Humanity, the 'divine' race, unequipped even to deal with the most basic of tasks: Survival.

We do have a means of knowing if a foetus up to a certain stage of development is capable of brainwave activity. But regardless, even then it would have no concept of what "life" or "death" is or its role in them (unlike a dog might). "Giving content to their death" is an argument that says to me that you adopt on behalf of them a content for their death, and while that's lovely, it's not a strong argument against the idea of robbing the parents of their right to decide their own fate (i.e. be adults).

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Thank you for your contribution

:sarcastic..............:slap:

 

[GiantHouseKey]

. "Giving content to their death" is an argument that says to me that you adopt on behalf of them a content for their death, and while that's lovely, it's not a strong argument against the idea of robbing the parents of their right to decide their own fate (i.e. be adults).

But is it a strong arguement against robbing a child of their right to live?

It's lovely, as you put it, to let people have rights, but what is even more lovely is the right to life. Why let a mother who potentially has made the wrong choice, somehow couldn't restrain herself, had unprotected sex, got pregnant with a child she didnt want have a right to choose to further destroy a child which has had no role in this mistake.

I accept that sometimes abortion is the only way, I really do. And I accept that people should have the right to choose (Yeah, really). Whether I believe that their choice is the right one or not is different to belief that they should be allowed to choose.

And I think that their right to choose is very clear: They can choose not to have sex = They can choose not to have a child.

By the way, a question concerning people who think abortion is ok: What if YOU were aborted as a child? You were perfectly healthy, going to grow up to be the people you are today etc. But your mother didn't want you so she had an abortion. What's wrong with that? You weren't even a person anyway, it doesn't matter. Why should it? It was her body and she had the right to choose whether or not to create this life, your own.

GhK.

 

[Willamena]

But is it a strong arguement against robbing a child of their right to live?

Not if what we "rob" them of is something adopted by us on their behalf. Then we're only robbing ourselves.

It's lovely, as you put it, to let people have rights...

Oh, no, no, no, no.... that's totally wrong, in my opinion (sorry to stop you here, I'm sensitive about rights). People have rights. We don't "let" them have rights --we don't have the right. They don't get rights from anywhere else but from simply being people.

...but what is even more lovely is the right to life. Why let a mother who potentially has made the wrong choice, somehow couldn't restrain herself, had unprotected sex, got pregnant with a child she didnt want have a right to choose to further destroy a child which has had no role in this mistake.

Who's to say that it's a mistake? We are. Unless they also do so for themselves, we adopt on behalf of the other the context of it being "a mistake". I'm saying it's the mistakes we see them make that we must let them make, else we are parenting them.

I accept that sometimes abortion is the only way, I really do. And I accept that people should have the right to choose (Yeah, really). Whether I believe that their choice is the right one or not is different to belief that they should be allowed to choose.

And I think that their right to choose is very clear: They can choose not to have sex = They can choose not to have a child.

Is that their right to choose, or yours in limiting the options to only two?

By the way, a question concerning people who think abortion is ok: What if YOU were aborted as a child? You were perfectly healthy, going to grow up to be the people you are today etc. But your mother didn't want you so she had an abortion. What's wrong with that? You weren't even a person anyway, it doesn't matter. Why should it? It was her body and she had the right to choose whether or not to create this life, your own.

I think this question of a scenario that didn't occur is just an appeal to emotion.

 

[GiantHouseKey]

Oh, no, no, no, no.... that's totally wrong, in my opinion (sorry to stop you here, I'm sensitive about rights). People have rights. We don't "let" them have rights --we don't have the right. They don't get rights from anywhere else but from simply being people.

So why do we have a bill of rights? I understand what you're saying, but in truth many nations in history were not led according to the rights of the people. I guess Jews in the 40s just 'had' human rights, regardless of whether they were allowed? Sure it would be great if everybody was as considerate and fair as you are, but it's just not always the case.

Who's to say that it's a mistake? We are. Unless they also do so for themselves, we adopt on behalf of the other the context of it being "a mistake". I'm saying it's the mistakes we see them make that we must let them make, else we are parenting them.

So you think that people want abortions? You think a mother goes out of her way to get pregnant so she can have an abortion? If it wasn't a mistake then they wouldn't want an abortion because they knew they would get pregnant and obviously wanted the child. I agree that people should be free to make their own mistakes, that's how we learn and progress as humans, but in the case of abortion I don't think it's the same situation.

Is that their right to choose, or yours in limiting the options to only two?

There are many stages of choice in life. Why, every single moment of our life is filled with a nearly limitless number of decisions that we have to make. In the case of a child, there is really only 2 options I can see. If you want a child you have unprotected sex. If you don't want a child, do you feel it is ok to have unprotected sex, get pregnant and then have an abortion?

GhK.

 

[Willamena]

So why do we have a bill of rights?

The documents of rights of our various governments are a guarantee that government will respect certain rights, and outlines conditions under which that agreement occurs (such as law).

So you think that people want abortions? You think a mother goes out of her way to get pregnant so she can have an abortion? If it wasn't a mistake then they wouldn't want an abortion because they knew they would get pregnant and obviously wanted the child.

This has nothing to do with what I said.

 

[Magic Man]

But is it a strong arguement against robbing a child of their right to live?

I have to ask: Do you eat meat?

By the way, a question concerning people who think abortion is ok: What if YOU were aborted as a child? You were perfectly healthy, going to grow up to be the people you are today etc. But your mother didn't want you so she had an abortion. What's wrong with that? You weren't even a person anyway, it doesn't matter. Why should it? It was her body and she had the right to choose whether or not to create this life, your own.

GhK.

That's kind of an inane question. There is no "What if I was an aborted child?". I am not. My parents had me. Children that young can't really think, so the question doesn't make sense.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

By the way, a question concerning people who think abortion is ok: What if YOU were aborted as a child? You were perfectly healthy, going to grow up to be the people you are today etc. But your mother didn't want you so she had an abortion. What's wrong with that? You weren't even a person anyway, it doesn't matter. Why should it? It was her body and she had the right to choose whether or not to create this life, your own.

What if your parents had never met? You'd be as non-existent today as if you had been aborted as a fetus. Do you want to restrain people's freedom in that regard?

 

[Nessa]

What if your parents had never met? You'd be as non-existent today as if you had been aborted as a fetus. Do you want to restrain people's freedom in that regard?

Though conversely, just as non-existent from death by natural causes too.

Unless there is a soul and heaven, but if there is, there might be an advantage to dying from an abortion versus old age.

 

[GiantHouseKey]

What if your parents had never met? You'd be as non-existent today as if you had been aborted as a fetus.

Yeah but the way I see it is that you would never have existed AT ALL. Obviously, no sex = no child. If the child is aborted as a foetus it has still been created, and in my opinion it counts as a person. Obviously it should not be treated the same as a fully grown person but a fully grown person has the ability to defend itself, and a foetus does not.

Do you want to restrain people's freedom in that regard?

I guess you don't fully understand my position. I do not think that abortion should be made illegal. That's not what this thread is about. The thread is entitled 'Atheist View On Abortion'. Well this is my view, as an atheist, on abortion. I don't want to 'restrain' or take away anybody's freedom, this is just my view. And, as I have stated before several times, I think that abortion should be legal. What I think should be legal and what I personally agree with are different things.

I have to ask: Do you eat meat?

Yep. I understand why this question is relevent but I think that's a different debate. In short, I would never eat human meat.

That's kind of an inane question. There is no "What if I was an aborted child?". I am not. My parents had me. Children that young can't really think, so the question doesn't make sense.

So that's 2 people that have disregarded my question. You seem quick to state how you think abortion is ok and yet you seem to mind when we think hypothetically that you could have been aborted. Is it not possible to consider something without the possibility of it not being an actual fact?

Who's to say that it's a mistake? We are. Unless they also do so for themselves, we adopt on behalf of the other the context of it being "a mistake". I'm saying it's the mistakes we see them make that we must let them make, else we are parenting them.

So you think that people want abortions? You think a mother goes out of her way to get pregnant so she can have an abortion? If it wasn't a mistake then they wouldn't want an abortion because they knew they would get pregnant and obviously wanted the child.

This has nothing to do with what I said.

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you said, but to me, you're saying that abortions should be considered ok because they are a part of learning about life and making our own mistakes. People have abortions because THEY decide pregnancy was a mistake. Otherwise they wouldn't have abortions. People don't have abortions so they can learn lessons in life, they have abortions because they don't want to be pregnant. That's the definition of a mistake, and if it wasn't a mistake you wouldn't want an abortion in the first place. Sorry if my opinion here is a little unclear, i'm known for waffling.

GhK.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

By the way, a question concerning people who think abortion is ok: What if YOU were aborted as a child?

Well, then I never would have obtained consciousness, so I would not have any problem not having existed.

 

[GiantHouseKey]

Well, then I never would have obtained consciousness, so I would not have any problem not having existed.

Obviously you wouldn't have cared if you were not alive if you were, infact, not alive. But if you want me to put it in simpler terms, do you like your life? If so how about if you never had it? Obviously your unborn self wouldn't have cared, but do you care?

By the way, this debate has made me partially change my stance on this issue. I love learning and changing how I think, so thank you to everybody who has been so relentless with their arguments

GhK.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

By the way, a question concerning people who think abortion is ok: What if YOU were aborted as a child? You were perfectly healthy, going to grow up to be the people you are today etc. But your mother didn't want you so she had an abortion. What's wrong with that? You weren't even a person anyway, it doesn't matter. Why should it? It was her body and she had the right to choose whether or not to create this life, your own.

GhK.

Then it wouldn't matter seeing as though I wouln't be here to answer the question right?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Obviously you wouldn't have cared if you were not alive if you were, infact, not alive. But if you want me to put it in simpler terms, do you like your life? If so how about if you never had it? Obviously your unborn self wouldn't have cared, but do you care?

Some days/periods I like my life better than others. Would I trade my current/future life for non-existence? I can't honestly answer that. Looking ahead to growing old, loved ones dying, potential sickness/tragedies, eventual death - I can't say at this point.

 

[GiantHouseKey]

Then it wouldn't matter seeing as though I wouln't be here to answer the question right?

But you are here to answer the question. I understand what you're saying but would you really be happy to have never lived?

Basically, I say that life is the most important thing a person can do. So denying somebody the opportunity of having a life is not something I like.

GhK.