ATHEIST ONLY: Atheist View On Abortion

[Willamena]

To me, it matters greatly whether something is alive or not alive.

It matters to me, also. I said that there is no significant argument to be made here because, when looked at from the perspective of physical body parts, there is never a point at which living "begins," because there was never a point when those parts are not living.

Actually, that's a question: Do you consider abortion to be taking life?

Yes, as well as ending a life. I also consider it to be robbing a person of a life. But I still favour the woman making her own decisions about her life.

I've often wondered if people are pro-life because they haven't considered their own role in the abortion process.

 

[GiantHouseKey]

I've often wondered if people are pro-life because they haven't considered their own role in the abortion process.

You could be right...Maybe it's because I am not a woman that I cannot really say what I would do. My own personal belief is that if I was a woman, these would be the morals by which I debate this issue.

I think my argument has become too complicated. My view is pretty simple. Whether or not you agree, my view is that I think abortion is wrong. I believe that abortion is acceptable in any situation where physical life is in danger (Such as the mother or child becoming severely handicapped or dead). In cases of rape I really do sympathise with the mother but it's still a child like any other regardless of the father.

And in most cases, which are generally because people have unprotected sex without considering the consequences, I really don't care whether the mother has the right to choose.

One thing that annoys me is that people can go around having unprotected sex and be like 'Oh well if I get pregnant I have the choice of having an abortion'.

My argument isn't really much more complex than that, so any other issues which I have somehow made to become debatable are irrelevent to my actual view on ABORTION.

GhK.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Like many questions in life, I understand, and agree with, many of the arguments on both sides.

I do not believe the state, or any authoritarian institution, should have a say in the matter.

I do believe that abortion can be extremely psychologically and emotionally damaging to a women who gets one.

I do believe that society is better off overall due to large numbers of unwanted pregnancies being terminated.

Abortion "feels" wrong to me - particularly when it is primarily due to convenience and not necessity.

In the end, I am a man, so the question will pretty much remain academic and hypothetical to me anyway. A few years ago, if my girlfriend got pregnant, I probably would have wanted her to have an abortion. I don't want kids yet, but now we are married, and if she did get pregnant, I probably would not want her to.

 

[leahrachelle]

You said it is acceptable to have an abortion after rape (and I think someting else, but I'm sure about rape). If you really think it's murder, then there should never be a good enough reason for it, not even rape.

No, no, I think you misunderstood when I said I would be satisfied if only rape & cases where the mother is hurt/killed are allowed - and thats because I think it's the most we can hope for with the law.
But I am against abortion in all cases, no exceptions.

 

[leahrachelle]

It matters to me, also. I said that there is no significant argument to be made here because, when looked at from the perspective of physical body parts, there is never a point at which living "begins," because there was never a point when those parts are not living.


Yes, as well as ending a life. I also consider it to be robbing a person of a life. But I still favour the woman making her own decisions about her life.

I've often wondered if people are pro-life because they haven't considered their own role in the abortion process.

Saving a life

 

[leahrachelle]

You could be right...Maybe it's because I am not a woman that I cannot really say what I would do. My own personal belief is that if I was a woman, these would be the morals by which I debate this issue.

I think my argument has become too complicated. My view is pretty simple. Whether or not you agree, my view is that I think abortion is wrong. I believe that abortion is acceptable in any situation where physical life is in danger (Such as the mother or child becoming severely handicapped or dead). In cases of rape I really do sympathise with the mother but it's still a child like any other regardless of the father.

And in most cases, which are generally because people have unprotected sex without considering the consequences, I really don't care whether the mother has the right to choose.

One thing that annoys me is that people can go around having unprotected sex and be like 'Oh well if I get pregnant I have the choice of having an abortion'.

My argument isn't really much more complex than that, so any other issues which I have somehow made to become debatable are irrelevent to my actual view on ABORTION.

GhK.

Yeah, I agree. It makes the whole issue so much worse that people are being so uncaring.

 

[Magic Man]

No, no, I think you misunderstood when I said I would be satisfied if only rape & cases where the mother is hurt/killed are allowed - and thats because I think it's the most we can hope for with the law.
But I am against abortion in all cases, no exceptions.

I understand, but you still consider certain ones to be more acceptable than others. It makes sense when dealing with a situation where the mother might lose her life, since then one way or the other, someone is going to die. However, in the case of rape, that should be no excuse at all, if you believe that abortion is murder.

 

[leahrachelle]

I understand, but you still consider certain ones to be more acceptable than others. It makes sense when dealing with a situation where the mother might lose her life, since then one way or the other, someone is going to die. However, in the case of rape, that should be no excuse at all, if you believe that abortion is murder.

Right right. I think you are still misunderstanding
I am simply thinking what is logical to hope for as far as what everyone else thinks. And I think the most I can hope for is that abortion be banned except for rape cases and cases where the mother will be hurt - because of the fact that, if abortion was ever banned, I think it would be for the reason that the argument of 'a woman should be able to do whatever she wants to her body' cannot apply since she CHOSE to have sex - she already did what she wanted to her body and now she is facing the consequences. Rape cases and cases where the mother is hurt will be argued back, though, because the woman did not chose to be raped and the woman did not chose to be in a life or death situation because of her baby.

 

[logician]

Banning abortions will not stop abortions, it just moves them to the hands of butchers instead of doctors.

 

[Magic Man]

Right right. I think you are still misunderstanding
I am simply thinking what is logical to hope for as far as what everyone else thinks. And I think the most I can hope for is that abortion be banned except for rape cases and cases where the mother will be hurt - because of the fact that, if abortion was ever banned, I think it would be for the reason that the argument of 'a woman should be able to do whatever she wants to her body' cannot apply since she CHOSE to have sex - she already did what she wanted to her body and now she is facing the consequences. Rape cases and cases where the mother is hurt will be argued back, though, because the woman did not chose to be raped and the woman did not chose to be in a life or death situation because of her baby.

I don't think it's logical to hope for that. Either abortions will be illegal or they won't. The cases of possible risk to the mother through complications would be possible exceptions, of course. However, for one, if we allowed it in the case of rape, it causes all kinds of problems. The first problem is that we don't know for sure who's been raped and who hasn't. In many cases, the woman/girl could just claim rape anyway and get it done. Another problem is with your reasoning. Why do you think it would be deemed legally acceptable in that one case to not let the woman do what she wanted with her body but not in other situations?

 

[Willamena]

Saving a life

That's one perspective, although is it something that they can truly take the credit for? If they claim that they've personally saved a life every time someone is arrested by the law for attempting abortion, is that honest? Or are they kidding themselves?

 

[Willamena]

...if abortion was ever banned, I think it would be for the reason that the argument of 'a woman should be able to do whatever she wants to her body' cannot apply since she CHOSE to have sex - she already did what she wanted to her body and now she is facing the consequences.

That 'a woman should be able to do whatever she wants with her body' would still apply, even in the case of abortions being banned. It's representative of the right of liberty. I think it's a poorly worded representation. I would word it rather that 'a person should be able to make choices about their own lives'.

The guarantee of rights being recognized is limited by law. If a person breaks the law, it's not the case that they lost or forfeited their right. That right will always be there, regardless of what laws we make, and it will always apply.

 

[leahrachelle]

I don't think it's logical to hope for that. Either abortions will be illegal or they won't. The cases of possible risk to the mother through complications would be possible exceptions, of course. However, for one, if we allowed it in the case of rape, it causes all kinds of problems. The first problem is that we don't know for sure who's been raped and who hasn't. In many cases, the woman/girl could just claim rape anyway and get it done. Another problem is with your reasoning. Why do you think it would be deemed legally acceptable in that one case to not let the woman do what she wanted with her body but not in other situations?

I see what you mean, but I just don't think of it that way.

 

[leahrachelle]

That's one perspective, although is it something that they can truly take the credit for? If they claim that they've personally saved a life every time someone is arrested by the law for attempting abortion, is that honest? Or are they kidding themselves?

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying...?

 

[Willamena]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying...?

In what sense, then, is "saving a life..." the role of pro-lifers in the abortion process?

 

[leahrachelle]

In what sense, then, is "saving a life..." the role of pro-lifers in the abortion process?

I still don't understand I think..
That is our role

 

[Magic Man]

I see what you mean, but I just don't think of it that way.

I don't understand. What don't you see what way?

 

[leahrachelle]

I don't understand. What don't you see what way?

You don't see the situation as I see it..? Her doing what she wants to her body

 

[Magic Man]

You don't see the situation as I see it..? Her doing what she wants to her body

In other words, you don't see it as letting her do what she wants with her body. Regardless of whether you want to see it that way, it is telling her what she can and can't do with her own body. My point was a question of why you think it would be deemed acceptable or legal to allow a woman to make that decision on her own in some cases (like rape), but not in others. How is that different from saying that it's never ok to kill someone unless your life is in danger or if you've been raped? Obviously, the first is sort of acceptable. If it can be proven, then you generally won't be convicted, if it's a case of self-defense. However, you might get some sympathy if the person you killed had raped you, but it wouldn't make it legal, and you'd still most likely be convicted of some kind of murder.

So, since, to you, having an abortion is no different than murdering another adult human being, then why would you expect this inconsistency in the law?

 

[GiantHouseKey]

Regardless of whether you want to see it that way, it is telling her what she can and can't do with her own body

Would you also agree, then, that regular murder law is telling somebody what they can and can't do? Why do you think it is acceptable to criminalise murder of a living human? Im sure you would agree that the answer is obvious. So why, then, do you feel that it is ok for the law to tell the murderer what they can and cannot do, but not what a mother who chooses to abort a child can or cannot do regarding the life of the child in question?

And personally, although I am not being asked, I don't think rape is a suitable ground for abortion. Not unless there is some other factor (Harm to the mother or child) that deems it necessary.

GhK.