ATHEIST ONLY: Atheist View On Abortion

[leahrachelle]

That's exactly what it means, "the day we were born". And "the day we were born" means "the day we became real people".

That's your opinion of it, but I don't see it like that

 

[Willamena]

A birthday celebrates the day you were born, the day you became a real person.

I hope that wasn't supposed to reflect anything I said. I would say (and have) rather that it's the beginning of a new life.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

No, I don't, but I have much more respect for women that their lvies are in danger than ones whose are not.

No you don't support abortion in the case of rape or incest or you only support it in the case that the women's health or life is in danger?

I can see what you mean by a women having an abortion because she had unprotected sex......BUT...it is her body so she should be able to make that decision.....

Really....what business is it of ours?

 

[leahrachelle]

No you don't support abortion in the case of rape or incest or you only support it in the case that the women's health or life is in danger?

I can see what you mean by a women having an abortion because she had unprotected sex......BUT...it is her body so she should be able to make that decision.....

Really....what business is it of ours?

No I don't support abortion in any case, but I'm just saying I have more respect for women that are in danger than I do for women who simply don't want their baby.
It's our business to try to save the baby...
If you knew of a child that was being abused, for instance, would you not try to help?

 

[Magic Man]

I hope that wasn't supposed to reflect anything I said. I would say (and have) rather that it's the beginning of a new life.

It was based on what you said, actually, and it means the same thing as what you just said. You become a "real person" in the sense of having rights, in other words your life as a human begins.

 

[Magic Man]

That's your opinion of it, but I don't see it like that

I understand, but that's why we celebrate birthdays.

 

[Willamena]

...it means the same thing as what you just said. You become a "real person" in the sense of having rights, in other words your life as a human begins.

Not to me, it doesn't, but fair enough. You see it that way.

I think I'll start a thread on personhood.

 

[leahrachelle]

Cant quote right now..

mball: You can't speak for everybody. That may be how you, and others even, define a birthday, but it is not how everyone does..

 

[Magic Man]

Cant quote right now..

mball: You can't speak for everybody. That may be how you, and others even, define a birthday, but it is not how everyone does..

No, not everybody, but that's not the point.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

No I don't support abortion in any case
but I'm just saying I have more respect for women that are in danger than I do for women who simply don't want their baby.

But you didn't start out your question this way. It's without a doubt that there are multiple reasons for abortion but you wanted everyone's opinion on abortion but you didn't specify the terms.

Should women not have the right to abort in the case of rape or incest?

Should a woman be allowed to have an abortion because she had unprotected sex? Well, my personal opinion is that it is not my right to make that decision. It is SOLELY AND COMPLETELY HERS......

It's our business to try to save the baby...

Well that's jut it. You've determined that it is no longer a undeveloped fetus and have determined from the start that it is a baby. Unfortunately for you this is not the case. This decision, as it stands for now, is hers to make. Do we halt the production of women contraceptives because the belief is that "the child" "the baby" should have a chance to be born? Do we ban a womens' choice to have her tubes tied because the baby should have the right to be conceived? NO... We do none of these things because it is her decision if she wants to conceive and it's her decision if she decides to terminate her pregnancy. "We" take such a high moral ground believing we are saving "the baby" and taking the right away from the mother. What are we saving "it" from? Who's going to be there to help her raise this baby? You're not. You can say we should save the baby but do you plan to be there for every baby you decide you want to save? I don't think so. Ones personal decision has nothing to do with you.

If you knew of a child that was being abused, for instance, would you not try to help?

This scenario is irrelevant in this situation.

 

[GiantHouseKey]

You've determined that it is no longer a undeveloped fetus and have determined from the start that it is a baby. Unfortunately for you this is not the case

I think you just summed up this whole arguement. Some people do think that, and some people don't. Just because you say it is not the case, it doesn't mean you're right. Just like it doesn't mean that I am right by having the opposite belief.

Do we halt the production of women contraceptives because the belief is that "the child" "the baby" should have a chance to be born? Do we ban a womens' choice to have her tubes tied because the baby should have the right to be conceived?

I agree that the above should be allowed. But I think it is unanimous (correct me if anyone thinks otherwise) that it is not considered to be a living organism until after conception. So I think that contraception is a whole lot better than abortion...Which is not really the issue.

Should a woman be allowed to have an abortion because she had unprotected sex?

I, of course, cannot make the decision whether the woman has the abortion. However, I do think that if you don't want a child there are options: 1) Have NO sex, 2) Have PROTECTED sex.

But it's also my view that some people should be banned from having children in the first place. If you lived in England, particularly in Devon, you know what I'm talking about.

No, not everybody, but that's not the point.

Not the main point, but you still argued it when you agreed with the idea that it was not everybodies opinion. That's all it is really, an opinion, presented as a fact.

GhK.

 

[Magic Man]

I think you just summed up this whole arguement. Some people do think that, and some people don't. Just because you say it is not the case, it doesn't mean you're right. Just like it doesn't mean that I am right by having the opposite belief.

The thing is that unless you can back up your opinion with something more than your feelings about it, then it shouldn't be taken as law.

But it's also my view that some people should be banned from having children in the first place. If you lived in England, particularly in Devon, you know what I'm talking about.

I couldn't agree more here. Wouldn't it be wonderful if you had to have a license to have kids?

Not the main point, but you still argued it when you agreed with the idea that it was not everybodies opinion. That's all it is really, an opinion, presented as a fact.

GhK.

Huh?

 

[GiantHouseKey]

The thing is that unless you can back up your opinion with something more than your feelings about it, then it shouldn't be taken as law.

I agree - I don't think that abortion should be illegal, I just oppose it. Sounds stupid I suppose, but just because I dont like abortions doesn't mean I think they should be illegal. Imagine that! A mother gets raped and the child she is carrying will almost certainly pose a threat to her life but she is still denied an abortion. Im not totally against abortion, just in cases where it is not life-endangering.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if you had to have a license to have kids?

Absolutely 007, licence to breed!

Huh?

...
Original: I understand, but that's why we celebrate birthdays.

My point was that just because we believe something to be fact, doesn't mean they are. This example is simply an opinion, whereas it is presented as a fact, which it is not. Just like belief in God is not a fact, although theists would tell me otherwise.

GhK.

 

[Magic Man]

I agree - I don't think that abortion should be illegal, I just oppose it. Sounds stupid I suppose, but just because I dont like abortions doesn't mean I think they should be illegal. Imagine that! A mother gets raped and the child she is carrying will almost certainly pose a threat to her life but she is still denied an abortion. Im not totally against abortion, just in cases where it is not life-endangering.

I understand and so am I. I oppose abortions for the most part, too, but don't want them to be illegal. However, I would think that if I saw them as human beings right from the start, it would be hard for me to accept abortions at all.

My point was that just because we believe something to be fact, doesn't mean they are. This example is simply an opinion, whereas it is presented as a fact, which it is not. Just like belief in God is not a fact, although theists would tell me otherwise.

GhK.

Well, that is why we celebrate birthdays. It is a fact. I don't really understand your part about belief in God.

 

[GiantHouseKey]

Well, that is why we celebrate birthdays. It is a fact. I don't really understand your part about belief in God.

It isn't though! Haha. Right, I celebrate christmas because my friends and family celebrate it. I don't celebrate it because it was the birth of Jesus. But the majority of christians would obviously think otherwise. I celebrate birthdays because they are the first day a human being can experience life outside of the mother. I dont believe that life begins on the day of birth, and so I don't believe that the birthday is the first time that we become real humans. This is what I believe. I know it is not a fact because it cannot be defined or understood unanimously, which is the definition of a fact.

As for the whole God thing, I have a tendency to go slightly on a tangent to present my beliefs 'in other words'. My point was, that just because a christian knows for sure that God exists, it doesn't mean it is a fact just because they say it is, because unless everybody agrees that logic is factual and it cannot be either physically experienced or logically proved, then it is not a fact.

GhK.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I celebrate birthdays because they are the first day a human being can experience life outside of the mother. I dont believe that life begins on the day of birth, and so I don't believe that the birthday is the first time that we become real humans.

I agree with you that celebrations can have different meanings for different people.

However, I also agree with the point mball is making, which hopefully you can appreciate if you look at it from a different way: imagine you're in a social (i.e. non-confrontational) setting. You're talking to someone who says that life begins at conception whenever the issue of abortion comes up in conversation... but it hasn't come up. Rather than bring up the issue at all, you just ask the person "how old are you?" Which number do you think they'll give you?

- the length of time since their birth
- the length of time since their conception

 

[Magic Man]

It isn't though! Haha. Right, I celebrate christmas because my friends and family celebrate it. I don't celebrate it because it was the birth of Jesus. But the majority of christians would obviously think otherwise. I celebrate birthdays because they are the first day a human being can experience life outside of the mother. I dont believe that life begins on the day of birth, and so I don't believe that the birthday is the first time that we become real humans. This is what I believe. I know it is not a fact because it cannot be defined or understood unanimously, which is the definition of a fact.

Christmas is a little different, though. It's interesting that you believe that about humans and birthdays, but it's very uncommon.

 

[GiantHouseKey]

but it's very uncommon.

Haha that's me through and through

Christmas is a little different, though

Oh yeah of course, but its the first thing that came to mind

I also agree with the point mball is making, which hopefully you can appreciate if you look at it from a different way: imagine you're in a social (i.e. non-confrontational) setting. You're talking to someone who says that life begins at conception whenever the issue of abortion comes up in conversation... but it hasn't come up. Rather than bring up the issue at all, you just ask the person "how old are you?" Which number do you think they'll give you?

Oh I understand it looking at it from this side. Obviously you give your age from your date of birth, but that is just the norm in most social settings. Imagine we started counting from conception, in our society. Then we would give our age dependent on when we were conceived rather than born. I appreciate that in modern society it can be hard to tell when a child is conceived...Something I dislike intensely, but what can I do. Back on the point, I suppose it all depends on your definition of life. If living is physically 'being', then I guess it starts at conception from my point of view. If you define it as being from birth, then your point of view is correct. But how do we say? And until there is a unanimous decision (Which will probably never happen) we can have a 2 sided debate!

GhK.

 

[Magic Man]

Oh I understand it looking at it from this side. Obviously you give your age from your date of birth, but that is just the norm in most social settings. Imagine we started counting from conception, in our society. Then we would give our age dependent on when we were conceived rather than born. I appreciate that in modern society it can be hard to tell when a child is conceived...Something I dislike intensely, but what can I do. Back on the point, I suppose it all depends on your definition of life. If living is physically 'being', then I guess it starts at conception from my point of view. If you define it as being from birth, then your point of view is correct. But how do we say? And until there is a unanimous decision (Which will probably never happen) we can have a 2 sided debate!

GhK.

The point is that you give your age from the date of birth because that's when technically your life started.

 

[GiantHouseKey]

I understand your point (which is not a fact, by the way, which is my point) I just don't agree with it. Is that wrong? And it depends how technical you actually want to be, as to when life 'technically' begins.