ATHEIST ONLY: Atheist View On Abortion

[GiantHouseKey]

No, I understood what you meant. My response was that that baby is still part of the mother's body, in which case you're telling the mother what to do with her body.

Some animals (including humans) eat some animals when they are not only raw, but still alive. As irrelevent as this might seem, the living animals is considered to be a seperate entity even after they are inside the body of the predatory animal.

Parasites live in a 'host' for at least the majority of their lives. Whilst living inside the organism, they are still considered to be separate from their host.

Although they are inside us they are not actually part of us. The human foetus is still considered by science to be a seperate entity to the mother. Is it your view that the child is not actually considered to be a seperate living being until it is fully born and functioning by itself?

GhK.

 

[Willamena]

We do make a clear distinction between offspring and parasites, though. Parasites are not going to be cuddled, ever.

Is it your view that the child is not actually considered to be a seperate living being until it is fully born and functioning by itself?

Why do you suppose we celebrate birthdays?

 

[GiantHouseKey]

Haha yes you're right. Actually, now you've said that, i've gained a little more compassion for parasites. Those poor dears.

However, cuddling is not necessary for something to be alive. Although your point is intellectually challenging me as to how I can hug a parasite, I still dont understand how, scientifically, a human child/foetus/embryo/whateveryoulike is any less of an individual organism as a parasite.

Disclaimer: GhK does support the argument that a foetus is just a parasite

GhK.

 

[Willamena]

However, cuddling is not necessary for something to be alive. Although your point is intellectually challenging me as to how I can hug a parasite, I still dont understand how, scientifically, a human child/foetus/embryo/whateveryoulike is any less of an individual organism as a parasite.

One consideration is that the scientific view is not the only, or necessarily the most correct, view in this instance. A parent choosing whether or not to abort may not give that view much weight in their decision.

 

[GiantHouseKey]

Why do you suppose we celebrate birthdays?

One's birthday is the first day that the human child can experience the world outside of his mother. What a wonderful experience that is. That's why I personally celebrate it.
So, I dont believe that on one's birthday is the first time when a foetus becomes a functioning, living, organism.

And who doesn't love cake, affection and a light shower of rubbish greetings cards?

GhK.

 

[Willamena]

One's birthday is the first day that the human child can experience the world outside of his mother.

When the cord is cut the child goes from being a non-separate living being to being a separate living being. We celebrate birthdays as the anniversary of the start of an individual's life.

An idea is "born" or "hatched", figuratively, when emerges from the sea of thought as a separate, unique thing. That metaphor takes its image from the birth of a new life from the body of the mother.

 

[GiantHouseKey]

That's not a belief that we share, then. And that belief is one that i feel is necessary for me to judge what I am saying here to be what I genuinely believe.

In any case I am pro- the life of any human. I believe that an unborn foetus counts as a human. If the life of the mother is in danger, then I think an abortion is acceptable to me. If the child and mother can both live and be vitally healthy then the abortion is not acceptable.

GhK.

 

[Magic Man]

Some animals (including humans) eat some animals when they are not only raw, but still alive. As irrelevent as this might seem, the living animals is considered to be a seperate entity even after they are inside the body of the predatory animal.

Parasites live in a 'host' for at least the majority of their lives. Whilst living inside the organism, they are still considered to be separate from their host.

Although they are inside us they are not actually part of us. The human foetus is still considered by science to be a seperate entity to the mother. Is it your view that the child is not actually considered to be a seperate living being until it is fully born and functioning by itself?

GhK.

Whether or not it's a separate being, it's still part of the woman's body until it is born. Let's say for the sake of this discussion that it is a separate entity. It's still inside of the mother and completely dependent on her (at least for the first 20 weeks and usually longer). So, again, telling a woman she can't have an abortion is telling her what to do with her own body (no matter how it affects someone else's).

To use one of your examples, it's like telling someone they can't take medicine to get rid of certain parasites, viruses or bacteria because of how it affects those other entities.

 

[Magic Man]

That's not a belief that we share, then.

You may not share it, but it's generally accepted in most cultures, even unconsciously by most pro-lifers. A birthday celebrates the day you were born, the day you became a real person.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

And this is YOUR opinion. I don't know what point you're trying to make by saying all of this is my opinion..? Of course it is. And what each and every person here says is their opinion.

Then where are we then at 470+ post later? You have everyone's opinion on the matter.

It is her right to abort and we should not be sticking our noses into another person's personal life.

Here's the question.....Do you support abortion at all in any case? See, I think there are valid reasons for abortion as I previously described.

If the mother's health or life is at risk and in the case of rape or incest she should have the right to terminate the pregnancy.

Lately I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter if we (the US) ban abortion across the board. I suspect women will go to other countries to have the procedure done. Those that don't leave may find some back alley "doctor" to perform the procedure and it just might not be the safest environment.

 

[GiantHouseKey]

Whether or not it's a separate being, it's still part of the woman's body until it is born. Let's say for the sake of this discussion that it is a separate entity. It's still inside of the mother and completely dependent on her (at least for the first 20 weeks and usually longer). So, again, telling a woman she can't have an abortion is telling her what to do with her own body (no matter how it affects someone else's).

To use one of your examples, it's like telling someone they can't take medicine to get rid of certain parasites, viruses or bacteria because of how it affects those other entities.

Whilst I see your side of the arguement, the fact that it is a part of our own species matters to me. I, maybe wrongly, believe that humans are just another animal, and to that end we should hold the survival and reproduction of our species to be a priority. I understand that the foetus is incredibly dependent on the mother and they should have the right to choose whether or not they can (Or want to) fulfill that dependence...

Also, I want to make it clear that I am not against abortions, provided they are for a good reason. People that use abortion as a way of getting rid of a pregnancy that is just a 'hinderance' to them is not something I advocate.

You may not share it, but it's generally accepted in most cultures, even unconsciously by most pro-lifers.

And some of my beliefs are 'not generally accepted in most cultures' but it doesn't stop me from having it.

A birthday celebrates the day you were born

I agree

the day you became a real person

I disagree

Arguements are multi sided, what can I say

GhK.

 

[leahrachelle]

That's not a belief that we share, then.

You may not share it, but it's generally accepted in most cultures, even unconsciously by most pro-lifers. A birthday celebrates the day you were born, the day you became a real person.

You're assuming that's the reason for birthdays (the real person part)

 

[leahrachelle]

Then where are we then at 470+ post later? You have everyone's opinion on the matter.

It is her right to abort and we should not be sticking our noses into another person's personal life.

Here's the question.....Do you support abortion at all in any case? See, I think there are valid reasons for abortion as I previously described.

No, I don't, but I have much more respect for women that their lvies are in danger than ones whose are not.[/quote]

Lately I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter if we (the US) ban abortion across the board. I suspect women will go to other countries to have the procedure done. Those that don't leave may find some back alley "doctor" to perform the procedure and it just might not be the safest environment.

This was like 200 posts ago

 

[Magic Man]

Whilst I see your side of the arguement, the fact that it is a part of our own species matters to me. I, maybe wrongly, believe that humans are just another animal, and to that end we should hold the survival and reproduction of our species to be a priority. I understand that the foetus is incredibly dependent on the mother and they should have the right to choose whether or not they can (Or want to) fulfill that dependence...

I don't think we need to worry about the survival of our species. We're doing just fine with that at 6+billion people. In fact, at this point the survival of our species depends more on having less children so as not to overpopulate the earth.

Also, I want to make it clear that I am not against abortions, provided they are for a good reason. People that use abortion as a way of getting rid of a pregnancy that is just a 'hinderance' to them is not something I advocate.

It depends on what you mean by "just a hinderance". I don't want women just going around having abortions on a whim either. However, it's a situation where it's their body and very personal circumstances, so I don't feel I have the right to ever tell them whether or not they can do it.

And some of my beliefs are 'not generally accepted in most cultures' but it doesn't stop me from having it.

Of course. That fact alone shouldn't stop you from having those beliefs. I'm just saying that most people believe that birth begins one's life, even if they don't realize it.

 

[Magic Man]

You're assuming that's the reason for birthdays (the real person part)

Yes, I'm assuming that because that's the reason for celebrating birthdays. Why else would we celebrate them?

 

[GiantHouseKey]

Why else would we celebrate them?

Don't you like cake?

Because birth is the first time we are able to experience what's outside. If you were stuck in a cupboard for 9 months I bet you'd celebrate the day you got out. That's just my opinion though. A lot of people think your way and that's fine, just be aware not abolustely everybody thinks that (Really, not even subconciously)

GhK.

 

[leahrachelle]

Yes, I'm assuming that because that's the reason for celebrating birthdays. Why else would we celebrate them?

No I'm talking about the 'real person' part. Why can't it just mean 'the day we were born?'

 

[leahrachelle]

Also, we can't tell the day we were concieved - most of the time

 

[Magic Man]

Don't you like cake?

Because birth is the first time we are able to experience what's outside. If you were stuck in a cupboard for 9 months I bet you'd celebrate the day you got out. That's just my opinion though. A lot of people think your way and that's fine, just be aware not abolustely everybody thinks that (Really, not even subconciously)

GhK.

I am aware that not everyone thinks like me. However, making that distinction isn't really necessary.

 

[Magic Man]

No I'm talking about the 'real person' part. Why can't it just mean 'the day we were born?'

That's exactly what it means, "the day we were born". And "the day we were born" means "the day we became real people".