ATHEIST ONLY: Atheist View On Abortion

[leahrachelle]

It does, though - what effects do you think that an orphan's home environment might have on said child's development? Perhaps "not being loved like they should" sounds like a high-brow complaint, but a poor home environment leads to fewer opportunities in life.



Of course it isn't, it's the prospective mother's choice.



Who is this "them" or "they" that you discuss? The mother? The potential child?

No, the mother does not have the right to say that either in my opinion. If they don't have the right to say it once they are born then they shouldn't when they are a fetus either.
In my opinion, the fetus is a human because it has the <b>genes for a human.</b> i dont see how people can argue that fact.

 

[leahrachelle]

them is the child

 

[rojse]

In my opinion, the fetus is a human because it has the <b>genes for a human.</b> i dont see how people can argue that fact.

What about an ova, then? Doesn't that have the genes for a human?

 

[Copernicus]

No, the mother does not have the right to say that either in my opinion. If they don't have the right to say it once they are born then they shouldn't when they are a fetus either.

Not true. While the child is part of the mother's body, it has an impact on the mother's health and future prospects. Pregnancy limits future prospects for an existing person, and that is the problem. To what extent can a fetus be considered a "person"? What does that mean? How is a human fetus more privileged than, say, an adult monkey? The monkey has a life of experiences. It relates to other existing beings. It may have offspring or a role in its society. The fetus has nothing really but unrealized potential. The mother has realized a good part of her life already, and she must plan for her future. Maybe the time is not right to bring another person into the world for that mother. It is a decision she must make, and why should she be arbitrarily deprived of the decision simply because a pregnancy has been initiated?

In my opinion, the fetus is a human because it has the <b>genes for a human.</b> i dont see how people can argue that fact.

Then every cell in your body is a human, and surgery itself becomes a moral dilemma.

 

[Father Heathen]

No, of course not.
But if few thousand extra of those save millions of other babies, yeah, I'm okay with that.
How hard is it to give it up for adoption, really..

Absolutely disgusting! You would actually have real people suffer and die just to "save" a few globs of cells? What would you do if found your own self in that situation one day?

Answer me this: how many abused, neglected and abandoned children do you plan to adopt?

 

[stacey bo bacey]

Would you still say that even if you found yourself in that situation?

Dallas and I have gone over this before and it turned out badly so I'm just going to keep my mouth shut. :cover:

But, hey, I'm all for keeping it legal so the fact that I think that really doesn't come into play. I certainly wouldn't hold it against anyone for having an abortion. I have a couple of friends who had to or wanted to have one and I was 100% there for them. It's their choice.

 

[darkendless]

Absolutely disgusting! You would actually have real people suffer and die just to "save" a few globs of cells? What would you do if found your own self in that situation one day?

Answer me this: how many abused, neglected and abandoned children do you plan to adopt?

Maybe we should also consider the fact that our planet is overpopulated currently by 2 billion. Abortion is population control, we see fit to do it to animals, so why not ourselves, we're just big animals

 

[Makaveli]

I'm glad you agree As for the rest, I detest abortion, but would rather see it legal, safe and controlled, than done in backstreets by dodgy doctors receiving bundles of cash for their work.

Even though I see abortion as completely wrong, it would be better legal than illegal simply because of the even greater negative effects caused by its criminalization. If women had to go out of country, or to some back alley, just to have an abortion, fully formed human beings would die for the sake of something with just the potential to be a fully formed human being.

Furthermore, the world needs more birth control, not less. Humans have outstripped the capacity of the Earth to support us by at least 3 billion people, and that number will have to go down eventually if we are to avoid a Malthusian style catastrophe.

It's the same thing with drugs, too. They're an evil, but a necessary evil, as people are not going to stop delving into narcotics as long as they're forbidden. Even more important is that billions of dollars are being funneled to criminal organizations and gangs just through the drug trade. If they were made legal, then not only could they be taxed, but this would also completely gut the drug traders.

That's the reason abortion should be legal, despite its nature.

 

[leahrachelle]

What about an ova, then? Doesn't that have the genes for a human?

I don't know what that is

 

[leahrachelle]

Absolutely disgusting! You would actually have real people suffer and die just to "save" a few globs of cells? What would you do if found your own self in that situation one day?

Answer me this: how many abused, neglected and abandoned children do you plan to adopt?

MILLIONS for thousands? How is that even a question? If someone traded you thousands of dollars for millions of dollars would you turn them down?

I would absolutely not abort my child in any possible situation. Poor, rape, incest, if I was going to die, etc. Because that child to me is a human and I have no right to take their life away without their consent. It is completely sickening to think that's what's best is to kill them.

 

[leahrachelle]

Maybe we should also consider the fact that our planet is overpopulated currently by 2 billion. Abortion is population control, we see fit to do it to animals, so why not ourselves, we're just big animals

That's just disgusting. Why the fetuses then huh? Let's kill the old people off, they've lived long enough. You wouldn't be so supportive if it was you being 'population controlled.' Or how about the jewish people, or how about the gay people??

NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO SAY WHO DESERVES TO LIVE.

 

[Nepenthe]

I don't know what that is

At the risk of sounding condescending- if you don't even understand such a basic biological example of how equating dioxyribonucleic strands with personhood is ludicrous, how then can I possibly take your objections to abortion seriously? As Copernicus correctly pointed out, if a blastocyst has human DNA and every somatic cell has DNA, then a clipped fingernail, saliva left on the rim of a glass, and every ejaculation becomes a mass genocide.
Life does not began at conception. Life began approximately 6.5 billion years ago and hasn't slowed down since. An arbitrary assignation of life at the zygote stage makes no sense at all.

 

[Willamena]

That's just disgusting. Why the fetuses then huh? Let's kill the old people off, they've lived long enough. You wouldn't be so supportive if it was you being 'population controlled.' Or how about the jewish people, or how about the gay people??

NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO SAY WHO DESERVES TO LIVE.

I don't think darkendless was suggesting a culling; rather that supporting safe abortions would contribute to relieve the separate problem of overpopulation.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I was just curious how everyone else felt about it because I have noticed that religious people are a lot more touchy with this. I, though, am stronger than ever against it and I was Catholic when I was younger.

How do you feel about it and why?

I'm pro-choice.

I see no reason to put my nose in another person's affairs. Her decisions, that I can tell, does not affect me or my lifestyle. It's her body so she should have the ultimate say.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, of course not.
But if few thousand extra of those save millions of other babies, yeah, I'm okay with that.
How hard is it to give it up for adoption, really..

How hard is it for a parent to run into a building that's only on fire a bit to save their child? The law doesn't require them to do that. Why should a potential person receive any more legal weight than an actual one?

As it is, the law excuses parents from taking on risks to their life and health to save their actual children if they choose not to do so that are well below the threshhold represented by carrying a fetus to term and giving birth.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Different atheists feel differently about abortion. We don't have a book telling us how to feel.

What...man....you mean we haven't written our own bible yest?????

We're slaking.....


tee hee....

I kid..I kid....

 

[leahrachelle]

At the risk of sounding condescending- if you don't even understand such a basic biological example of how equating dioxyribonucleic strands with personhood is ludicrous, how then can I possibly take your objections to abortion seriously? As Copernicus correctly pointed out, if a blastocyst has human DNA and every somatic cell has DNA, then a clipped fingernail, saliva left on the rim of a glass, and every ejaculation becomes a mass genocide.
Life does not began at conception. Life began approximately 6.5 billion years ago and hasn't slowed down since. An arbitrary assignation of life at the zygote stage makes no sense at all.

So I dont know a lot of scientific terms?? I'm 16 years old. Sorry I haven't gone to medical school yet. Sorry I haven't even finished biology. But does my lack of knowledge in science mean I don't know right from wrong?? No. Will learning all there is to know about fetuses change my feelings about abortion?? No. You can teach me all the science crap in the world, and it doesn't change the fact that I feel that we don't have the right to say who gets to live or not. Period. Science has nothing to do with that. And if you live your life based on scientific evidence alone, you're just as ignorant as the Christians. Look around you, at the obvious. You don't need science to tell you to be nice to people. You don't need science to tell you not to kill or hurt people. Has science ever been able to explain love?
Can you honestly tell me that if you had an abortion you would not feel one bit guilty about it?

 

[Father Heathen]

MILLIONS for thousands? How is that even a question? If someone traded you thousands of dollars for millions of dollars would you turn them down?

Thousands of real dollars in exchange for millions in monopoly money? No. Fetuses aren't people. They aren't sentient, sapient, self-aware, conscious, etc. they cannot think or feel. They're just a glob of cells that cannot yet be assigned personhood.

 

[leahrachelle]

Thousands of real dollars in exchange for millions in monopoly money? No. Fetuses aren't people. They aren't sentient, sapient, self-aware, conscious, etc. they cannot think or feel. They're just a glob of cells that cannot yet be assigned personhood.

Right before three months is when a lot of women abort their babies. Does that look just like a clump of cells to you? It has a head, two arms, two legs, a torso, etc. It has bones and fingernails. It can swallow and kick. All organs and muscles have formed and are beginning to function. Seems to me like it's just like a smaller version of a newborn baby, with the exception of a few minor things.

 

[Copernicus]

Right before three months is when a lot of women abort their babies. Does that look just like a clump of cells to you? It has a head, two arms, two legs, a torso, etc. It has bones and fingernails. It can swallow and kick. All organs and muscles have formed and are beginning to function. Seems to me like it's just like a smaller version of a newborn baby, with the exception of a few minor things.

There is a fallacy in your reasoning here that you need to acknowledge. Just because something physically resembles a baby, that does not mean that it is the same thing as a baby. It isn't until about the third trimester that enough of the brain develops for the fetus to begin to have some higher cognitive functions. Your criterion for calling the fetus a "baby" at that point is too superficial.

But your actual position seems to oppose abortions before the fetus develops even those superficial characteristics, so the use of that picture doesn't really support the actual position that you are advocating.