Atheist takeover...

[blackout]

Ah, good ol times. witch hunts, only for everyone who believes in anything. how nice.

I'm not stupid. I have a family. I'm not about to put myself out there waving my religion around to get myself locked up or killed. I honestly wouldn't have to do anything much different than now. Keep my pentacle tucked inside my shirt or not wear it at certain times in case there would be a chance of it coming out. I'm a solitary, so I practice in my home. Unless people were sneaking around and and trying to peak in my windows through my blinds on midnight during Esbats, there's nothing that would catch people's eyes really.

Exactly.

Some of us are used to it already.
(more or less)

 

[blackout]

Exactly.

Some of us are used to it already.
(more or less)

... and, I would say, more so at the hands of other thiests,
than athiests.

 

[Acim]

really?
Where?

Pick a post, any post, where you see me as author, and your login ID in quotes. This one would be an example of at least 4 in this thread.

I ain't selling.
Nor am I buying what you are selling.

I'm not buying that you're not selling, nor am I buying that you are not buying what I'm (allegedly) selling. Mostly because you're still here, gobbling it up. Careful, you spilled some on your lap.

It is not my fault that you tipped your hand before you were ready.

I was ready, and it is mainly your fault. I blame you for whatever you are indirectly referring to. It is like you have buyer's remorse, after I sold you a good product, that you eagerly bought. Even while I was giving it away. But you insisted on buying it. We must ask ourselves, why?

Your sad attempt at transference is most comical.

I'm not buying that you find it sad, nor am I selling it as transference. You're the one selling transference. Yeah, very funny.

 

[McBell]

Pick a post, any post, where you see me as author, and your login ID in quotes. This one would be an example of at least 4 in this thread.

I'm not buying that you're not selling, nor am I buying that you are not buying what I'm (allegedly) selling. Mostly because you're still here, gobbling it up. Careful, you spilled some on your lap.

I was ready, and it is mainly your fault. I blame you for whatever you are indirectly referring to. It is like you have buyer's remorse, after I sold you a good product, that you eagerly bought. Even while I was giving it away. But you insisted on buying it. We must ask ourselves, why?

I'm not buying that you find it sad, nor am I selling it as transference. You're the one selling transference. Yeah, very funny.

*climbs up on pontoon boat*

 

[Koldo]

Within context of this thread, that surprises me (or is contrary to my high opinions of atheist types). In context of modern day society, outside of this forum, I can relate to your desire to call in TPTB to deal with perceived intruders. Knowing such an offense isn't likely to be met with death penalty for those involved.

Even if such offense were to be met with death penalty at current days i would still call the cops. I don't care if you are a theist, a clown and/or a hobit, a stranger is not going to promote an event in my house without my permission. If you are going to die then so be it. It has nothing to do with religion.

Up to you. I don't have issue with entertaining yourself with things that may appear to go against your "better judgment." In fact, I would probably encourage it, given context you are stating (movies that depict).

Rather, the context we are stating.

 

[Acim]

You presented a ridiculous portrayal of atheists

Where?

In your hypothetical questions.

I guess you aren't feeling like citing those questions, so I will do that, and you can let me know perhaps more specifically what you see as ridiculous portrayal of atheists.

Questions are:

For atheists: would you actively resist this in any fashion? Essentially saying persons have right to practice their beliefs in private way? Would you even go as far as provide safety zone (housing, or whatever) for believers in your area? Or, would you go along with TPTB (authority) and help round-up the wrong-doers to be elminated?

I do have reasonable follow up to those that did reply.

If providing safehouse / refuge to believers (against tyrants) meant they would practice their spirituality under your roof / in your presence, would your reply still be the same? Also, what if it was in vein of them (believers) remaining vigilant for God, and to whatever degree evangelical? Such that, they feel safe in your presence, but given the 'reality' of the time, they feel even more convinced that 'people need saving' and to be made well aware of the Word? You may disagree, and every chance they get, in your presence, they pray for you, and tell you that they are praying for you.

Hopefully, I've painted that scenario okay. Would you still feel (strong) desire to make a place for them on this planet to exist, especially if that place was part of 'your' space?

This is from 2 posts I made before you made comment of, "I would take the ones that ask dumb questions and turn them in for the reward money."

So, if you mean another post, do let me know where.

You rephrased the question in hopes of getting answers that validated your prejudice.

Perhaps partially, but I would say mostly not. Like 80% (at least) in vein of, "let me elaborate on the earlier question, given responses thus far, and see if you (atheist or agnostic types) would go as far as letting theists practice their brand of spirituality in 'your' space." And 20% (at most), in vein of prejudice that I later volunteered and have intellectual honesty to admit that it is at work, but hardly feel it is anywhere near primary outlook I have. Especially given the hypothetical. Since I am author of the hypothetical, I would assure you that I believe and would argue that it has next to no chance ever happening in the way I describe it. I'd say around .00001 percent chance. So, it really is a hypothetical, is really not a portrayal of atheists (and would like to see if anyone reading this thread feels otherwise) and I am earnestly seeking responses from the 3 types mentioned in OP, with higher desire to receive responses from atheist types or, how you say, 'strong agnostics.'

And so far, I would say of the non theist types, I've found myself genuinely appreciative of their comments, expressed as much to some, and feel open to however the further results may come in.

 

[The Wizard]

Awe, well as I step outside for my daily oxygen unit I am reminded of the old Blade Runner movie back in the days of liberty and half tolerance. The heathen god believing rebels and spiritualists have their genetic diseases and are being infiltrated and sent to the deprogrammers more and more. But, something keeps telling me that I am not just a meat space androgenous Android. I dare not reveal these feelings except in this diary log and when I turn inwards to dream.. I will be seeing my counseler tomorrow, for when this happens I know my medication needs to be increased, to fit in.. and be a perfect selfless member in the new society.... haha....

 

[Acim]

I'm not stupid. I have a family. I'm not about to put myself out there waving my religion around to get myself locked up or killed. I honestly wouldn't have to do anything much different than now. Keep my pentacle tucked inside my shirt or not wear it at certain times in case there would be a chance of it coming out. I'm a solitary, so I practice in my home.

Pretty much how I feel about it with regards to my brand of theism. Would have little impact on me. But I felt compelled to ask it in way I did, because I believe many theists have rituals, practices, desire to congregate that is rather public, or out and about in the local community.

 

[Alceste]

I was seriously wondering about this topic before I read this other thread (see here). The other thread pretty much gets at what I was thinking, but is coming at it from opposite angle.

Suppose a faction of society, that holds a viable sense of authority, were to claim they have definitive evidence (or proof) that God / gods do not exist. That it is clearly a delusion and will now be treated, aggressively, as such. Determined to be extremely harmful (psychologically speaking) to society and needs to be eradicate.

Believers must renounce their belief. To the point where if anyone is caught uttering or practicing some sort of religious ritual or spiritual act, it is crime punishable by death.

Questions are:

For atheists: would you actively resist this in any fashion? Essentially saying persons have right to practice their beliefs in private way? Would you even go as far as provide safety zone (housing, or whatever) for believers in your area? Or, would you go along with TPTB (authority) and help round-up the wrong-doers to be elminated?

For agnostics: Pretty much same questions as those posed to atheists, with possible addition along lines of, might this policy cause you to lean one way or the other? Like, identify with atheists clearly so you are 'saved?' Or maybe identify with theists in a principled fashion?

For theists: Do you relinquish your beliefs in such a way where you never, ever talk about it, except with most trusted comrades? Or perhaps not at all? Do you restrict yourself from any sort of congregations, rituals, acts (like prayer, meditation, etc.)? Or do you possibly go out in blaze of glory sticking strongly / proudly to your faith, and say openly practice until 'they' come to take you away?

I will answer not as an "atheist" (though I do not believe in god/s), but as a person who scores as low as it is possible to score on the authoritarian index (0%).

If ANYONE were going to actively attempt to frustrate such an attempt, it would probably be me and people like me (IOW, who are not very susceptible to authoritarian mentality or groupthink.) That's not a guarantee that I would resist, since we don't really know how we will behave in a situation until it occurs. It's only an assumption that in order to countenance atrocities against human dignity we must be willing to defer our own moral accountability to others in positions of higher authority. That's something I have never done and can reasonably assume I will probably never develop a taste for.

I would worry more about people who are submissive to authority (*cough* devout believers *cough*), since they do not tend feel morally accountable for their own actions in the same way I do.

 

[Acim]

Awe, well as I step outside for my daily oxygen unit I am reminded of the old Blade Runner movie back in the days of liberty and half tolerance. The heathen god believing rebels and spiritualists have their genetic diseases and are being infiltrated and sent to the deprogrammers more and more. But, something keeps telling me that I am not just a meat space androgenous Android. I dare not reveal these feelings except in this diary log and when I turn inwards to dream.. I will be seeing my counseler tomorrow, for when this happens I know my medication needs to be increased, to fit in.. and be a perfect selfless member in the new society.... haha....

Posts like this make me want to reconstruct this into poem format, and since it is my thread, eh, why not.

(Paraphrasing, just a bit)

Awe
I step outside for
daily oxygen unit
reminded
of liberty and half tolerance

The heathen god
believing rebels and spiritualists
have their genetic diseases
infiltrated and sent to deprogrammers
more and more.

Something keeps telling me
I am not just a meat space
androgenous Android.

I dare not reveal
feelings
except in this diary log
and inwards
to dream..

I will be seeing
my counseler tomorrow,
medication increased,
to be a perfect selfless member
in the new society....

haha....

- The Wizard

 

[Acim]

If ANYONE were going to actively attempt to frustrate such an attempt, it would probably be me and people like me (IOW, who are not very susceptible to authoritarian mentality or groupthink.) That's not a guarantee that I would resist, since we don't really know how we will behave in a situation until it occurs. It's only an assumption that in order to countenance atrocities against human dignity we must be willing to defer our own moral accountability to others in positions of higher authority. That's something I have never done and can reasonably assume I will probably never develop a taste for.

I would worry more about people who are submissive to authority (*cough* devout believers *cough*), since they do not tend feel morally accountable for their own actions in the same way I do.

Thank you for that well versed response.

Curious what you mean by 'worry about devout believers?' Like help them out in some way, or just act idly with sense of worry?

 

[blackout]

Thank you for that well versed response.

Curious what you mean by 'worry about devout believers?' Like help them out in some way, or just act idly with sense of worry?

The *devout believers* would be more apt to submit to the new authority
than the athiests? (or anyway, the "individualists")

Authority substitution.

(I'm guessing is what Alcest meant)

Those of us who do NOT submit to authority,
any authority,
but to our own will,
will be more apt to continue as such.
(as we are accountable to Our Selves,
and not some authority or another)

 

[Alceste]

Thank you for that well versed response.

Curious what you mean by 'worry about devout believers?' Like help them out in some way, or just act idly with sense of worry?

I mean, I would worry more about believers perpetrating atrocities against human rights at the behest of corrupt authorities than I would about atheists doing so. In general, atheists seem to me to be much less susceptible to authoritarian submission than religious believers. (By that I mean committed members of an authoritarian religious institution, not theists in general, and certainly not agnostics).

 

[Alceste]

The *devout believers* would be more apt to submit to the new authority
than the athiests? (or anyway, the "individualists")

Authority substitution.

(I'm guessing is what Alcest meant)

Those of us who do NOT submit to authority,
any authority,
but to our own will,
will be more apt to continue as such.
(as we are accountable to Our Selves,
and not some authority or another)

Yep, that's exactly what I meant. Thanks UV.

If I've never submitted to anybody against my conscience in my entire life, why would I start just because the person who wants to exercise power over me happens to share my lack of belief in deities? To me that is a totally insignificant similarity.

 

[Acim]

I mean, I would worry more about believers perpetrating atrocities against human rights at the behest of corrupt authorities than I would about atheists doing so. In general, atheists seem to me to be much less susceptible to authoritarian submission than religious believers. (By that I mean committed members of an authoritarian religious institution, not theists in general, and certainly not agnostics).

I see where you're coming from. And perhaps in OP, I could've put something in theist position that amounted to, "would you turn in another denomination, throwing them to the wolves, because you saw it as some sort of opportunity to eradicate that group of people?"

At same time, I don't think I was getting at that sort of point in relation to atheists, unless one really really reads into my hypothetical.

I don't see religious types as vastly more susceptible than non-religious types. Not anymore. In many ways, I think that pendulum has swung the other way. Like say 800 years ago, yeah, authority could count on religious types submitting. But since 'age of reason' has dawned on us, I think pendulum has gradually been shifting things, such that religious types are more or less rebellious. Like thinking Satan has taken over our governments and it's time to take the gloves off in battle for hearts and minds.

Personally, I do think atheist types are more susceptible than traditional connotations might suggest. But the way in which I do believe that, is not what this thread was mostly going for. IMO, it is a discussion for another thread.

 

[The Wizard]

That's really neat Acim. I never thought of that. Just please don't tell my counseler or report the thought crime to the local agency. I just shrill at the thought of 6 months in CISI. Correctional Institute for Spiritual Irrationality.... haha.

 

[blackout]

This conversation reminds me of "The Golden Compass".

Funny thing, it was the Roman Catholic Church ("spiritual" authority)
who got all up in arms about the movie,
and pretty much put an end to it's sequals.

It was the witches and the children and the individualists
who banded together against the authorities/authority/heirarchy/rulers.

The Golden Compass is the enemy of authoritarians.

It shows them for who they are,
and renders them useless- unnecessary - at best,
tyrants at worst.

 

[Kathryn]

For theists: Do you relinquish your beliefs in such a way where you never, ever talk about it, except with most trusted comrades? Or perhaps not at all? Do you restrict yourself from any sort of congregations, rituals, acts (like prayer, meditation, etc.)? Or do you possibly go out in blaze of glory sticking strongly / proudly to your faith, and say openly practice until 'they' come to take you away?

I can't say I'd never talk about my beliefs to anyone outside my circle. Sometimes a situation presents that simply calls for an expression of faith or belief. I like to think I'd be brave enough to speak out at that moment.

I would probably keep my worship as private as possible. Since my form of worship doesn't require any rituals, that would be pretty easy.

I would be reasonably cautious. But - if I was found out and arrested, I believe I would be able to hold fast to my faith and be bold.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

Free thought atheism just as an individual's freedom of belief without any state interference is a good thing, but State atheism stinks. State sanctioned any belief system stinks from theocratic regimes to atheism for that matter. I am totally against the State policing our freedom of thought, period.

 

[T-Dawg]

So you would condone executing people due to their religious beliefs?

I'm more of a fan of education as a solution to the threat religious types pose, personally. The death penalty is not necessary or desirable, however, truth always takes precedence over life. Those who remain religious should have certain abilities taken away that are commonly considered rights, such as raising offspring, running schools, being in positions of authority, etc - in short, I do not approve the death penalty for religious people, but I want religion to be contained.