"Atheist"--the term itself

[Augustus]

Debate must be easy when you erect and destroy your own strawmen.

Not quite as easy as it is when you don't even understand your own arguments and are physically capable of typing the word 'strawman' when things get beyond your logical capacity.

Let's make this simple: do 'groups of letters' get their meaning from historical and contemporary usage or based on some magical qualities of the letters themselves?

If it is from usage, why doesn't the group of letters 'atheist' get its meaning from historical and contemporary usage?

You are arguing that 'atheist' gets its meaning from the way some of its letters are used in other words. You might not realise this, but you are. Go back and find where you used other words beginning with a- to define atheist.

That, if you are aware of usage, you can sometimes retrospectively identify some commonalities between 'groups of letters' and meaning is correct. That the way such 'groups of letters' are used in other words is the defining factor as regards a completely different 'group of letters' is false.

The only way I can know the the a- in ashore is different from the a- in atheist is because I understand usage. Words aren't created according to rules, they are created by people who use them in a certain way.

The word 'atheist' has a history of usage which for 2500 years did not match your definition. Yet now you claim to be able to identify its 'true' meaning based on how some of its letters are used in other words.

Really?

 

[Ouroboros]

You can say gnosticism = having knowledge. Agnosticism = not having knowledge. Theism = having belief. Atheism = not having belief.

So totally missed the point of my post.

 

[Ouroboros]

Ok. I will do this again. See if people catch it this time:

ism
ˈizəm/
noun
informalderogatory
noun: ism; plural noun: isms

1. a distinctive practice, system, or philosophy, typically a political ideology or an artistic movement.
   "of all the isms, fascism is the most repressive"

Origin
View attachment 11778
late 17th century: independent usage of -ism.

-ism
suffix
suffix: -ism

1. 1.
   forming nouns:
2. 2.
   denoting an action or its result.
   "baptism"
   • denoting a state or quality.
     "barbarism"
3. 3.
   denoting a system, principle, or ideological movement.
   "Anglicanism"
   • denoting a basis for prejudice or discrimination.
     "racism"
4. 4.
   denoting a peculiarity in language.
   "colloquialism"
5. 5.
   denoting a pathological condition.
   "alcoholism"

 

[leibowde84]

I think you missed the point.

What point?

 

[Ouroboros]

What point?

That "-ism" doesn't mean "belief". Prometheus claimed -ism means belief.

Even if it did, the -ism is a suffix attached to the whole word of "a-the" so it would be "belief in no-God" rather than "no-belief in God".

 

[leibowde84]

Ok. I will do this again. See if people catch it this time:

ism
ˈizəm/
noun
informalderogatory
noun: ism; plural noun: isms

1. a distinctive practice, system, or philosophy, typically a political ideology or an artistic movement.
   "of all the isms, fascism is the most repressive"

Origin
View attachment 11778
late 17th century: independent usage of -ism.

-ism
suffix
suffix: -ism

1. 1.
   forming nouns:
2. 2.
   denoting an action or its result.
   "baptism"
   • denoting a state or quality.
     "barbarism"
3. 3.
   denoting a system, principle, or ideological movement.
   "Anglicanism"
   • denoting a basis for prejudice or discrimination.
     "racism"
4. 4.
   denoting a peculiarity in language.
   "colloquialism"
5. 5.
   denoting a pathological condition.
   "alcoholism"

What are you trying to show here? Atheism, theism, and agnosticism all deal with belief or lack thereof. Agnosticism is the BELIEF that KNOWLEDGE of God is not attainable.

 

[Ouroboros]

What are you trying to show here? Atheism, theism, and agnosticism all deal with belief or lack thereof. Agnosticism is the BELIEF that KNOWLEDGE of God is not attainable.

It was a response to Prometheus claiming that "-ism" means belief". It doesn't.

 

[leibowde84]

That "-ism" doesn't mean "belief". Prometheus claimed -ism means belief.

Even if it did, the -ism is a suffix attached to the whole word of "a-the" so it would be "belief in no-God" rather than "no-belief in God".

Of course, not always. But, in this context, atheism, theism, and agnosticism all deal with belief.

 

[leibowde84]

It was a response to Prometheus claiming that "-ism" means belief". It doesn't.

Oh, I see. You are right that it doesn't always refer to belief, but in this case the terms in question do.

 

[Ouroboros]

Of course, not always. But, in this context, atheism, theism, and agnosticism all deal with belief.

But, we can't extract the word "-ism" as belief when it doesn't mean that. It's a poor explanation to the use of the word atheism by claiming that the root word means something that it doesn't.

 

[Ouroboros]

Oh, I see. You are right that it doesn't always refer to belief, but in this case the terms in question do.

No, it doesn't. The "-ism" in atheist doesn't refer to belief. It never did. The definition of atheism is how it is used by the atheists, nothing more than that. Going for root words to define it doesn't work.

 

[ArtieE]

The word 'atheist' has a history of usage which for 2500 years did not match your definition. Yet now you claim to be able to identify its 'true' meaning based on how some of its letters are used in other words.

Really?

Gnosticism means "having knowledge" and agnosticism means "not having knowledge". Theism means "having belief" and atheism means "not having belief". But you want atheism to mean "having the opposite belief"?

 

[Ouroboros]

Oh, I see. You are right that it doesn't always refer to belief, but in this case the terms in question do.

Besides, the -ism part is a later addition to atheos, which means that it applies to the whole word of "a-the-", not just the "a-". So it should be understood as "-ism of a-the-" Which would then be "belief in no-God". So it's good that "-ism" doesn't mean belief since the root structure would suggest a belief in no-God.

 

[leibowde84]

No, it doesn't. The "-ism" in atheist doesn't refer to belief. It never did.

Again, the terms in question all refer to belief or lack thereof. I'm not saying that the suffix does, but the terms in question without a doubt refer to belief.

Theism = belief in the existence of God or gods.
Atheism = lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
Agnosticism = belief that knowledge of God is not attainable.

 

[Augustus]

You can work out what -ism means if you know the usage of the word that contains -ism.

If you don't know the usage, you can guess as to what the -ism might mean, but you can't know what -ism actually means without knowing the usage of the word containing -ism.

See prism for example.

 

[Ouroboros]

Again, the terms in question all refer to belief or lack thereof. I'm not saying that the suffix does, but the terms in question without a doubt refer to belief.

Theism = belief in the existence of God or gods.
Atheism = lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
Agnosticism = belief that knowledge of God is not attainable.

"-ism" still doesn't mean "belief".

The usage of the words is that the words represent those definitions. Searching for the "true meaning (tm)" of the words by looking at the root words fails.

 

[leibowde84]

Besides, the -ism part is a later addition to atheos, which means that it applies to the whole word of "a-the-", not just the "a-". So it should be understood as "-ism of a-the-" Which would then be "belief in no-God". So it's good that "-ism" doesn't mean belief since the root structure would suggest a belief in no-God.

Theism doesn't mean "God", it means "belief in God". So, "a-theism" would be "without belief in God". One is either a theist or an atheist ... either they have a belief in a god or they don't.

 

[outhouse]

That presumes an evolution from atheism to theism.

Atheism can be a rejection of the mythology surrounding deities.

Atheism does not require a conscious rejection of theism.

If one is not a theist, one can only be an atheist.

Can you give me a use of implicit atheism that doesn't ring the same bells as calling babies atheists?

It is as simple as using the term to describe someone who is not a theist. A baby is not a theist.

Someone who has never heard of the deity concept and does not know about a deity, would be an implicit atheist.


Atheist simply means not a theist.

 

[outhouse]

Theism doesn't mean "God", it means "belief in God". So, "a-theism" would be "without belief in God". One is either a theist or an atheist ... either they have a belief in a god or they don't.

That is correct.

If one is not a theist one is an atheist

 

[Augustus]

Gnosticism means "having knowledge" and agnosticism means "not having knowledge". Theism means "having belief" and atheism means "not having belief". But you want atheism to mean "having the opposite belief"?

Agnosticism was invented by Thomas Huxley because he wanted to invent a word for his beliefs.

If he had invented agnosticism because he wanted to describe a cheese and ham sandwich and it had caught on, agnosticism would have meant a cheese and ham sandwich.