Atheistic Logic

[xBlackCess]

Nice.
Sounds an awful lot like: If you do not believe that my opinion/interpretation of this is right then...

I see that too Mestemia... that type of attitude annoys me. This is a place for conversing about religion and our thoughts. Hope, if you don't allow for others to have their own views, you can't converse in an argument properly.

 

[Papersock]

I am still waiting for a post that isn't a rehash of the arguments that I have already pointed out in the OP. If God exists and you truly believe that He will not allow you into His presence unless you believe in Him, there is almost no one on this planet that would choose anything other than faith. The problem, thus, must be that you are unwilling to submit to a hypothetical scenario that includes His existence and not that you would willingly go to hell. Think about the painful screams from people in just a moment of intense fires. That is nothing compared to the fires of hell. Two minutes of burning would be enough to change the minds of even the most devout (if that is even a good word to use) atheists. No doubt that you can think of how you will fill after ten thousand years of torment when you realize that you are not one second closer to the end.

If there is a god, we still don't know for sure what hell is like. You're discription is based on a litteral translation.

If this god with this version of hell exists, I would not be able to stay in heaven, wether I prefer to not suffer or not. Because I would still dislike god for treating people that way. He would not let me hang around in heaven if I don't really love him.

 

[Storm]

I am still waiting for a post that isn't a rehash of the arguments that I have already pointed out in the OP. If God exists and you truly believe that He will not allow you into His presence unless you believe in Him, there is almost no one on this planet that would choose anything other than faith. The problem, thus, must be that you are unwilling to submit to a hypothetical scenario that includes His existence and not that you would willingly go to hell.

No, the problem is that you refuse to even try to understand that if such a God exists, I think He's EVIL and I will not worship Him because He is EVIL.

Of course I don't WANT to go to Hell. But faced with the choice between

1) being tortured forever or

2) abandoning everything I believe is right to pretend to love the twisted, sadistic, EVIL ******* that's going to be torturing everyone who doesn't pretend to love Him,

I choose torture.

Do you admire martyrs, kmkemp? Perhaps it would help if you looked at it that way. I'm not some idiot who thinks that Hell just ain't that bad; I'm someone who won't abandon my principles and worship a monster.

Think about the painful screams from people in just a moment of intense fires. That is nothing compared to the fires of hell. Two minutes of burning would be enough to change the minds of even the most devout (if that is even a good word to use) atheists. No doubt that you can think of how you will fill after ten thousand years of torment when you realize that you are not one second closer to the end.

Exactly. THink about it. You're worshipping the being responsible for that suffering. You're condoning His atrocity. You're blaming the victims of His petty sadism. If a father beats his children, do you tell the kids it's their fault for making him angry?

 

[Paraprakrti]

God desires that all men shall come to the knowledge of the truth, but yet this is a separate concept from His will. This is a very imperfect example since my will is not perfect such as is the case with God, but here goes: I desire to not go to work tomorrow, but yet I realize that going to work is a good thing and thus I will myself to go.

God's desire and God's will both dwell on the absolute platform (as does God Himself) and thus are nondifferent from each other. That is the special feature of the absolute platform. What you are saying is that an eternal God desires something and then purposely sets it up so that that desire will never come to fruition. I understand the concept of free will and thus I understand that everyone won't immediately go to Heaven because God desires it. God desires both the we should not perish but also that we shall make the decision to turn toward Him. Nevertheless, no finite duration of free will ever equals eternal suffering. Not only does the punishment not fit the crime, but the punishment contradicts the supreme desire of God.

 

[PureX]

I have heard more than I care to an argument that goes along these lines:

God is sadistic so why should I worship Him? If he tortures people for eternity, then I would gladly choose hell rather than spend eternity with Him. There is no justice or love or mercy in an infinite punishment for a finite crime (sin).

I hope that was an adequate paraphrase. The line of arguments quickly develops into a mockery of Bible verses about God's unsearchable ways. My purpose is to ask a question. Why do you (if you dare to use the above arguments) dare to question God? Let's look at the situation another way. One of two things are true.

1. God exists.
2. God doesn't exist.

I hope it is obvious that if God doesn't exist, we need not make assumptions about what He would or would not do. It is a non-issue. He doesn't exist. That is all that needs to be said. You can't prove that He doesn't exist by telling what you think He would do if He did exist and showing why that that doesn't actually happen.

However, if God does exist, then how can you dare to question His decisions? Your very being is only because of Him.

Romans 9:20
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

If God exists and He created you, then your logic and mind is only a result of His higher mind designing you thus. The key word there is 'higher'. If God exists, then His ways are surely better than ours. After all, we are still incapable of creating anything. An atheist would do much better to not dabble in philosophical nonsense such as this, in my opinion.
[/FONT]

Sorry, I'm way late to this thread. But aren't we confusing two very different issues. God's existence has nothing to say about God's nature, and God's nature does not prove or preclude God's existence. So those who claim that God doesn't or shouldn't exist because he is a torturer, are confusing two completely different issues. God could easily exist and not be a torturer. In which case the "God's a torturer" argument becomes moot, anyway. However, God being a torturer never had any baring on God's ability or right to exist, either, as God could exist and be a torturer, or God could exist and not be a torturer just the same. So God's being a torturer never effected God's ability to exist one way or another.

 

[Hope]

Nice.

Sounds an awful lot like:

If you do not believe that my opinion/interpretation of this is right then...​

I apoligize for giving you that impression. Not my intent.

However, for the sake of argument, I'm not the only who thinks you are mistaken in your interpretation.

 

[Jeremiah]

Two minutes of burning would be enough to change the minds of even the most devout (if that is even a good word to use) atheists. No doubt that you can think of how you will fill after ten thousand years of torment when you realize that you are not one second closer to the end.

No need to burn me..

If I saw hell that would be evidence enough that I would reconsider my perception of hell.

I think that maybe you do not understand ""Atheistic logic"

 

[Hope]

I see that too Mestemia... that type of attitude annoys me. This is a place for conversing about religion and our thoughts. Hope, if you don't allow for others to have their own views, you can't converse in an argument properly.

I'm not disallowing anything, with all due respect. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But this is a debate, and I'm pretty sure the object of a debate is to try to get others to see your point of view, and why you think your point of view is right. I'm not disallowing others' viewpoints any more than they are "disallowing" mine.

 

[Jeremiah]

But this is a debate, and I'm pretty sure the object of a debate is to try to get others to see your point of view, and why you think your point of view is right.

I always thought the object of a debate was so you could see other's point of view.

Now I will have to reconsider my views on "debate".

 

[lilithu]

The reason you don't think my illustration to be analogous is because, as I said before, you don't understand the story of Abraham and Isaac.

Abraham knew the nature of God. He knew God would not act against His nature. So instead of balking in fear and doubt when God told him to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham placed Isaac in the hands of the "tightrope walker," aka, God. He knew God was good. He knew God well enough, and trusted Him enough, to know his son Isaac would not be harmed. That is called real faith in someone. Knowing they will not let you down in spite of the odds, in spite of danger. So if you fail to see this as the point of the story, and that, yes, it is perfectly analogous to the tightrope walker story, then I will attempt no further to try to explain. If you don't want to see, then you simply will not see.

You've obviously never read Fear and Trembling. In it, Kierkegaard argues that the kind of explanation that you give is too easy. It takes faith too lightly. If Abraham was so certain that God would not make him go through with the test, then it wasn't really a test of faith at all. No, Abraham DID NOT KNOW that his son Isaac would not be harmed. The only thing that Abraham "knew" is his faith in God, that whatever happened, even if God required the sacrifice of Isaac, that God would still fulfill his promise to Abraham, that he would have numerous descendants.

 

[McBell]

I apoligize for giving you that impression. Not my intent.

However, for the sake of argument, I'm not the only who thinks you are mistaken in your interpretation.

My interpretation?
How many ways is there to interpret it?

And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man..
​

So what did he vow?

And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.​

What was the next thing to come through the door?

And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.
​

So what is YOUR interpretation of it?
Let me quote post #58:

That's just grasping at straws, I'm afraid. This is not at all a story of child/human sacrifice. First of all, God never ordered Jephthah to sacrifice anyone. Jephthah made the vow of his own accord. And I think it's ironic that God showed Jephthah how foolish his vow was by sending his daughter to him. But even then, God was merciful and did not force Jephthah to literally fulfill that vow. I do not see where it says he actually killed her. The sacrifice was her remaining a virgin her entire life.

 

[Hope]

My interpretation?


How many ways is there to interpret it?

And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man..​

So what did he vow?

And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,​

Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.​

What was the next thing to come through the door?

And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.​

So what is YOUR interpretation of it?
Let me quote post #58:

Sorry, Mestemia, for the confusion. I was referring to your understanding of the Abraham and Isaac story, not the one about Jephthah. Notice where I made the remark.

I'll do some research on the Jephthah story. For some reason I've never been taught, or understood, that Jephthah actually killed his daughter. But I could be wrong. And am perfectly willing to admit so. Nevertheless, even if he did kill her, it's still not an example of a sadistic God requiring human sacrifice. It's more about making foolish and rash vows. Like I said before, God never told Jephthah to sacrifice anyone. If you can find an example in the Bible of God actually requiring human sacrifice, then you might have an argument. (Aside from sacrificing His own Son, Jesus Christ, of course.)

But I stand firm on my understanding about Abraham and Isaac.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

If you can find an example in the Bible of God actually requiring human sacrifice, then you might have an argument. (Aside from sacrificing His own Son, Jesus Christ, of course.)

I don't see why that shouldn't count as an example of Yahweh requiring human sacrifice....that seems like a pretty clear-cut example to me.

 

[Darkness]

Or maybe you are wrong. Just because the idea of heaven versus hell fits so well into your preserving authority and "scaring people into belief" arguments does nothing to disqualify the possibility that He does indeed exist and that He is warning you out of love.

Just as the psychopath beats his girlfriend because she didn't do exactly as he wanted. He didn't want to hurt her, but she disobeyed him.

Abraham knew the nature of God. He knew God would not act against His nature. So instead of balking in fear and doubt when God told him to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham placed Isaac in the hands of the "tightrope walker," aka, God. He knew God was good. He knew God well enough, and trusted Him enough, to know his son Isaac would not be harmed. That is called real faith in someone. Knowing they will not let you down in spite of the odds, in spite of danger. So if you fail to see this as the point of the story, and that, yes, it is perfectly analogous to the tightrope walker story, then I will attempt no further to try to explain. If you don't want to see, then you simply will not see.

You are missing the point of the story. If God's nature is good, then a good God would never order you to do something evil. Abraham could easily say, "this order is contradicting your goodness and therefore I will not comply." What odds are there? Did God roll the dice? What danger is there if Abraham knew God was simply lying? Yes, that is right. God lied to Abraham! Give me some indication from the book of Genesis that Abraham knew YHWH was lying and that Abraham was not truly willing to commit an evil act in the name of YHWH.

 

[kmkemp]

If there is a god, we still don't know for sure what hell is like. You're discription is based on a litteral translation.

If this god with this version of hell exists, I would not be able to stay in heaven, wether I prefer to not suffer or not. Because I would still dislike god for treating people that way. He would not let me hang around in heaven if I don't really love him.

Again, it all comes down to you choosing to judge God despite His morals being the highest of the high. Your morals and judgments are only a spawn of what God has allowed you to by His own creating finger. I think that you might have a different point of view if the shoe was on the other foot.

 

[kmkemp]

No, the problem is that you refuse to even try to understand that if such a God exists, I think He's EVIL and I will not worship Him because He is EVIL.

I'm sorry, but that is way too farfetched for me to even begin to consider. Besides His obvious benevolence, there is still this simple fact: if you were faced with the choice of unending joy living in the presence of a god that you hated or eternal torture at the hands of anyone, even if it was your favorite person on the planet, there is still not one person that would choice eternal torment if he possesses a proper understanding of what eternal and torment actually mean together. I refuse to believe that you are an exception, no matter how sure you think you are.

Of course I don't WANT to go to Hell. But faced with the choice between

1) being tortured forever or

2) abandoning everything I believe is right to pretend to love the twisted, sadistic, EVIL ******* that's going to be torturing everyone who doesn't pretend to love Him,

I choose torture.

You might. Then imagine yourself a few minutes later. A few weeks. A few years. A few millenniums. A few million millenniums. Somehow I doubt that you would willingly choose that if you actually understand what it means.

Do you admire martyrs, kmkemp? Perhaps it would help if you looked at it that way. I'm not some idiot who thinks that Hell just ain't that bad; I'm someone who won't abandon my principles and worship a monster.

I beg to differ. Don't mistake my agreeing to your hypothetical as my admittance that God has acted unjustly, however.

Exactly. THink about it. You're worshipping the being responsible for that suffering. You're condoning His atrocity. You're blaming the victims of His petty sadism. If a father beats his children, do you tell the kids it's their fault for making him angry?

He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. His ways are not your ways. He has reasons that are greater than your meager mind that He gave you. I don't think you are understanding the situation here. It really isn't that complicated. God is not torturing the nonbelievers in hell. A better analogy would be a father that loves his children and does everything he can for them their entire life. His children never admit to anyone that the father is actually related to them. In fact, they deny that he exists at all. They refuse to seek a relationship with him despite his best efforts and run away. They are willingly estranging themselves from him. Now pretend that this father could force them to acknowledge him. Should he? Would that be loving? No, he will let them have their choice. When you refuse to acknowledge God's presence, you are choosing hell. God is not sending you there. ~

 

[Darkness]

He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. His ways are not your ways. He has reasons that are greater than your meager mind that He gave you.

Shadow the Hedgehog's way are the greatest of all and you cannot comprehend them. You merely have to have faith that Shadow knows best. Give me one good reason I should believe God's morality is more important than human's morality.

 

[Hope]

I don't see why that shouldn't count as an example of Yahweh requiring human sacrifice....that seems like a pretty clear-cut example to me.

It doesn't count because it was actually self sacrifice.

 

[Hope]

You are missing the point of the story. If God's nature is good, then a good God would never order you to do something evil. Abraham could easily say, "this order is contradicting your goodness and therefore I will not comply." What odds are there? Did God roll the dice? What danger is there if Abraham knew God was simply lying? Yes, that is right. God lied to Abraham! Give me some indication from the book of Genesis that Abraham knew YHWH was lying and that Abraham was not truly willing to commit an evil act in the name of YHWH.

God simply told Abraham to do something. How is that lying? If I tell you to rob a bank, does that make me a liar? Not quite following your logic here....

 

[worshiper]

i read a story from somewhere which i cant recall.... maybe in a reader's digest .. not sure

Barber = Atheist
Customer = Theist

Barber : I dont believe in god
Customer : Why is that?
Barber : Because if god really exists, why are there so many suffering around us?
Customer : Then i don't believe barbers exist.
Barber : Why would you say that? I'm here am i not? i am cutting your hair.
Customer : If you exist, then why is there so many messy haired people out there?
Barber : Thats not my problem. they don't come to me. How do you think i can keep everyone's hair neat if they don't come to me?
Customer : Maybe thats why so many suffering in this world. They just don't seek God anymore.

just something to ponder upon...