Atheistic Logic

[Mr Spinkles]

It doesn't count because it was actually self sacrifice.

My flawed atheistic logic is having difficulty understanding this.

"Hey kids, you've been naughty, so unfortunately you're going to be tortured by my psychotic friend, and I'm not going to stop him, even though I am more powerful than him, because you've been naughty--it's your choice. Unless Jimmy is tortured and killed. They I'll forgive you and protect you from my psychotic friend."

I don't see how such a father can be called loving or even sane, and I certainly don't see how this isn't an example of the father requiring a human sacrifice.

I've seen this old argument pop up a lot here as well: "God encourages us to follow a path that he knows is best for us, but if we choose to follow a path that will lead to hell, he will allow us."

Gee, what a wonderful father. "Billy, I would encourage you not to go on a killing spree, but if that is the path you want to follow, I won't prevent you from doing it."

We aren't talking about getting a tatoo or dropping out of medschool, we're talking about eternal agony in hell and committing atrocities against other human beings.

The whole 'parents shouldn't control their kids' lives' excuse holds zero water when it comes to murder, rape, genocide, etc. and a divine father with the power to physically stop his children from doing it. If I have a daughter and she goes after my son with a knife, you better believe I'm going to physically restrain her, even if it means infringing on her 'free will'. That's what any responsible parent would do.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

i read a story from somewhere which i cant recall.... maybe in a reader's digest .. not sure

Barber = Atheist
Customer = Theist

Barber : I dont believe in god
Customer : Why is that?
Barber : Because if god really exists, why are there so many suffering around us?
Customer : Then i don't believe barbers exist.
Barber : Why would you say that? I'm here am i not? i am cutting your hair.
Customer : If you exist, then why is there so many messy haired people out there?
Barber : Thats not my problem. they don't come to me. How do you think i can keep everyone's hair neat if they don't come to me?
Customer : Maybe thats why so many suffering in this world. They just don't seek God anymore.

just something to ponder upon...

Of course! All the rape and murder and disease and famine victims in the world just aren't 'seeking God' any more! They're just like messy-haired people: they have so little respect for themselves that they don't even bother to seek God to cure their unimaginable suffering. Hahaha, it's really their own fault, those starving, poor, miserable, messy-haired slobs.

Wasn't there a country somewhere that had a horrible famine or an epidemic or a tsunami or something, but they 'sought God' and all their problems magically went away? I thought I remembered reading about that somewhere.

*slaps self in the face*

Whoah, what happened? I had an inanity attack and I blacked out there for a minute.....

 

[Hope]

My flawed atheistic logic is having difficulty understanding this.

"Hey kids, you've been naughty, so unfortunately you're going to be tortured by my psychotic friend, and I'm not going to stop him, even though I am more powerful than him, because you've been naughty--it's your choice. Unless Jimmy is tortured and killed. They I'll forgive you and protect you from my psychotic friend."

I don't see how such a father can be called loving or even sane, and I certainly don't see how this isn't an example of the father requiring a human sacrifice.

I've seen this old argument pop up a lot here as well: "God encourages us to follow a path that he knows is best for us, but if we choose to follow a path that will lead to hell, he will allow us."

Gee, what a wonderful father. "Billy, I would encourage you not to go on a killing spree, but if that is the path you want to follow, I won't prevent you from doing it."

We aren't talking about getting a tatoo or dropping out of medschool, we're talking about eternal agony in hell and committing atrocities against other human beings.

The whole 'parents shouldn't control their kids' lives' excuse holds zero water when it comes to murder, rape, genocide, etc. and a divine father with the power to physically stop his children from doing it. If I have a daughter and she goes after my son with a knife, you better believe I'm going to physically restrain her, even if it means infringing on her 'free will'. That's what any responsible parent would do.

I know it's a hard concept to grasp. And I've been in many a debate over it, that all end up going in circles.

However, I guess my point in regards to the parent/rebellious child analogy was not quite as broad in scope as you've painted it. I was thinking more along the lines of simply accepting/rejecting Jesus, not various flagrant sins like murder, rape, etc. God doesn't want to use His divine power to make us accept or love Him. So if we rebel and reject Him, then His only choice is to let us continue to the natural end of that rebellion: destruction.

 

[worshiper]

Of course! All the rape and murder and disease and famine victims in the world just aren't 'seeking God' any more! They're just like messy-haired people: they have so little respect for themselves that they don't even bother to seek God to cure their unimaginable suffering. Hahaha, it's really their own fault, those starving, poor, miserable, messy-haired slobs.

Wasn't there a country somewhere that had a horrible famine or an epidemic or a tsunami or something, but they 'sought God' and all their problems magically went away? I thought I remembered reading about that somewhere.

*slaps self in the face*

Whoah, what happened? I had an inanity attack and I blacked out there for a minute.....

"Of course! All the rape and murder and disease and famine victims in the world just aren't 'seeking God' any more!" rapers, murderrers, and selfishness will cease to exist if one "truely" fears god.

obviously you have no idea how a truely god fearing person would treat another person. but i don't blame you. you are just lack of ability to put yourself in someone's shoes.

"An Atheist calling a Theist delusional is no better than a Theist calling an Atheist resident of hell"

 

[Prometheus]

obviously you have no idea how a truely god fearing person would treat another person. but i don't blame you. you are just lack of ability to put yourself in someone's shoes.

It all depends on what they think God wants them to do. Fear is no foundation for a moral life.

 

[worshiper]

It all depends on what they think God wants them to do. Fear is no foundation for a moral life.

god say, "don't torture people"

what will a god fearing person do?

 

[Prometheus]

god say, "don't torture people"

what will a god fearing person do?

How do you know God said that? The Bible records God commanding the killing of infants. It's hardly beyond Him to command torture.

 

[rojse]

God loves me so much that he will condemn me to an eternity of pain and torture merely because I did not believe in him? I am glad no one else loves me that much.

 

[rojse]

The difference between a barber and god are infinite. Firstly, everyone has concrete evidence that a barber exists. When a barber cuts my hair, I know that my hair is cut, and so does everyone else I encounter. I don't get threatened by the barber because I don't want a haircut. I don't get punished with eternal damnation merely because I did not want to go to the barber. I don't go to hell because my friend cuts my hair instead of a barber. I don't go to hell because I visited the wrong barber.

Contrasted with a God that has no concrete evidence, his encounters are not always visible to everyone, only those that believe in God. I get threatened, as was perfectly pointed out in the thread start, should I not believe in God. I am punished with eternal damnation because I don't want to go to God, because I do not feel a need for God, or because I go to a different God.

 

[worshiper]

How do you know God said that? The Bible records God commanding the killing of infants. It's hardly beyond Him to command torture.

i'm not talking about the bible. i don't use bible as my reference. coz i dont believe in half of the bible is saying.

my idea of god is someone who promotes good deeds. for a god fearing person, he will obey gods order and do good deeds.

 

[Prometheus]

i'm not talking about the bible. i don't use bible as my reference. coz i dont believe in half of the bible is saying.

my idea of god is someone who promotes good deeds. for a god fearing person, he will obey gods order and do good deeds.

Again, you don't have any clue what God's wishes are.

 

[worshiper]

The difference between a barber and god are infinite. Firstly, everyone has concrete evidence that a barber exists. When a barber cuts my hair, I know that my hair is cut, and so does everyone else I encounter. I don't get threatened by the barber because I don't want a haircut. I don't get punished with eternal damnation merely because I did not want to go to the barber. I don't go to hell because my friend cuts my hair instead of a barber. I don't go to hell because I visited the wrong barber.

Contrasted with a God that has no concrete evidence, his encounters are not always visible to everyone, only those that believe in God. I get threatened, as was perfectly pointed out in the thread start, should I not believe in God. I am punished with eternal damnation because I don't want to go to God, because I do not feel a need for God, or because I go to a different God.

hell in barber god's world is damnation of messy hair and if you ask someone else to cut your hair, he'll get angry (in a way. not literally but still angry).

 

[rojse]

The point I was trying to make is that there is no relationship between a barber and God, so there should be no comparison between the two, such as you made in your story about the analogy of the barber and god.

 

[worshiper]

The point I was trying to make is that there is no relationship between a barber and God, so there should be no comparison between the two, such as you made in your story about the analogy of the barber and god.

point received .. but you don't have to go technical on me.
of cors there are no relationship between two (well maybe one). thats why you call it a metaphor. its just a figure of speech.

 

[Storm]

I'm sorry, but that is way too farfetched for me to even begin to consider.

If you refuse to even try to understand the other side, why did you start this debate? As an excuse to tell us all about how horrible it's going to be when we're in Hell?

 

[Darkness]

God simply told Abraham to do something. How is that lying? If I tell you to rob a bank, does that make me a liar? Not quite following your logic here....

God told Abraham that He wanted him to sacrifice Isaac. Then God stops Abraham from sacrificing Isaac as He never intended Isaac to be murdered. Unless God changed his mind and decided later on that He would spare Isaac, YHWH decieved Abraham into thinking He really wanted Isaac dead.

 

[Zeno]

"Of course! All the rape and murder and disease and famine victims in the world just aren't 'seeking God' any more!" rapers, murderrers, and selfishness will cease to exist if one "truely" fears god.

obviously you have no idea how a truely god fearing person would treat another person. but i don't blame you. you are just lack of ability to put yourself in someone's shoes.

"An Atheist calling a Theist delusional is no better than a Theist calling an Atheist resident of hell"

So what is the definition of one who truly fears god? It seems awful convenient that you can just lump all rapists in murders into people who don't "truly" fear god. Is that how you define truly fearing god? Someone who is too afraid to rape and murder?

What about the people who murder in the name of god? Oh but they're just confused and misinterpreting him? Isn't that a dangerous idea to have around if it can be so easily misinterpreted? With the sheer volume of "misinterpretations," how can you be sure of your "god fearing person" definition?

 

[Storm]

pssst, Zeno!

I think you need to turn on your sarcasm detector.....

 

[kmkemp]

Shadow the Hedgehog's way are the greatest of all and you cannot comprehend them. You merely have to have faith that Shadow knows best. Give me one good reason I should believe God's morality is more important than human's morality.

Because your morality doesn't exist apart from God.

 

[kmkemp]

If you refuse to even try to understand the other side, why did you start this debate? As an excuse to tell us all about how horrible it's going to be when we're in Hell?

Copout. The very reason for this thread was my consideration for atheistic positions that I find illogical.