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Atheists acknowledging historical Jesus' goodness

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Margherita Hack, Italian astrophysicist. Staunch atheist, said: I do not believe in God because I find the notion itself absurd, it is a human invention. I live perfectly without believing in God. I don't need God to behave good towards the others. Jesus' figure is essential. "Love thy neighbor as thyself"...it is extraordinary.

- What do you guys think?
Human morality is acquired in two ways ─ the evolved part from our genes and the learnt part from our upbringing, culture, education and experience.

The evolved part includes disliking the one who harms, liking fairness and reciprocity, respecting authority, being loyal to the group, and deriving a sense of self-worth through self-denial. As well we have an evolved conscience and an evolved capacity for empathy.

So that's all built in,. Of course those tendencies and capacities compete with our needs, desires, respect for authority, group loyalty and so on.

But our dislike of the one who harms, and our like of fairness and reciprocity are the natural foundation of the golden rule, and it seems to me 'Love thy neighbor as thyself' is just an alternative phrasing of the golden rule, versions of which long predate Jesus.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Elon Musk


Margherita Hack, Italian astrophysicist. Staunch atheist, said: I do not believe in God because I find the notion itself absurd, it is a human invention. I live perfectly without believing in God. I don't need God to behave good towards the others. Jesus' figure is essential. "Love thy neighbor as thyself"...it is extraordinary.

- What do you guys think?
I think Jesus runs hot and cold. He's quite erratic, and a lot of his teachings are pretty awful if not based in fact.

There's enough material in the Gospels to pull some nice-sounding Jesus quotes, but I think that overall, Jesus's teachings and example are more negative or nonsensical than positive.

As for Elon Musk, though... I think what he said about turning the other cheek is hilarious:

SpaceX fires at least five over letter critical of Elon Musk
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Elon Musk


Margherita Hack, Italian astrophysicist. Staunch atheist, said: I do not believe in God because I find the notion itself absurd, it is a human invention. I live perfectly without believing in God. I don't need God to behave good towards the others. Jesus' figure is essential. "Love thy neighbor as thyself"...it is extraordinary.

- What do you guys think?
About the hearsay accounts of what Jesus may or may not have said? Well the golden rule quoted predates Jesus by quite a bit...

"Possibly the earliest affirmation of the maxim of reciprocity, reflecting the ancient Egyptian goddess Ma'at, appears in the story of "The Eloquent Peasant", which dates to the Middle Kingdom (c. 2040–1650 BCE): "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to make him do." This proverb embodies the do ut des principle. A Late Period (c. 664–323 BCE) papyrus contains an early negative affirmation of the Golden Rule: "That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another."
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I think we can do better for sources of morality, especially without the judgement, guilt, shame and especially the angry and violent dad he has.

Assuming that there is a God. Morality is (how God wants us to behave). God isn't bound by the same rules.

Even if there is not a God, the dietary restrictions of Othodox Jews were designed to keep them (Jews) safe in a filthy world with diseases and no refrigeration, and to remind them to be humane. Thus, the restrictions not to eat pork nor shellfish kept Jews safe. Pigs are filthy creatures that wallow in mud, eat almost anything, and their physiology is so close to human that they pass diseases on to humans (swine flu). Human meat (they say) tastes like pig meat (our genetics are that close).

I think that it is likely that the story of Passover (April 5 to April 15, this year, but typically March or April) is about Egyptians giving their first born sons dibs on shellfish. But, during a red tide (February to March, and August to September), shellfish are deadly. Jews told the Egyptians to free them from the bondage of slavery or else God will kill their first born sons. Essentially (in my opinion), the Egyptians inadvertently poisoned themselves. This scared Egyptians into freeing Moses and the Jews.

Jews also restrict eating the meat of an animal and drinking the milk of the same animal at the same meal. They feel/felt that it was too cruel.

There are also guidelines to prepare food with sanitary methods (washing hands, not allowing just anyone in a kitchen, and having the entire meal supervised by a Rabbi (trained in food preparation)). One must not mix raw meats with vegetables, etc. The Rabbis were like modern USDA inspectors. Does it matter that Jews felt that some invisible God was forcing them to get food inspections?

The ten commandments were common sense laws. Some communities, today, want to make billboards with the ten commandments on them. They argue that killing is against the law, so by saying "thou shalt not kill" they aren't saying anything that the law doesn't already say. They don't see why they can't advertise God's laws if they are the same as the current laws of mankind/womankind.

It is as if some very wise Jews, in ancient times, studied the causes of illnesses and problems with society, and made it appear that God made the list. I think that we have to admit that at least some of God's laws are just sensible laws that we all should follow.

What could go wrong? Many people don't interpret the bible correctly, or they appoint themselves (or others) to be God's executioners. As a result, some Muslims say that the Ayatollah Khomeni is a good and peaceful man. Yet, Khomeni issued a fatwa (like a Mafia assassination order) to kill all Iranians who were educated in America because they were corrupted. I had been discussing the appointment of Khomeni with Iranian students, and they were releived that Khomeni was returning their nation to the solid and pure and good and clean morality of the bible. Shortly after, they were praying to get rid of Khomeni. Muslims aren't the only ones with ruthless dictators.

We now see Chritianity focusing on Gays. There are so many things to read about in the bible, that they should not restrict Gay marriage (and take away inheritance and child custody, and government benefits of marriage). God didn't tell everyone to do His job of hurting sinners. Only God is the judge (judge not lest ye be judged. . . Jesus, Sermon on the Mount).

The Kooks of the Ku Klux Klan proudly wear crosses, while carrying out the most heinous acts of bigotry, and they think that they are doing God's work.

Nazi Germany started out Christian, and Hitler started out Christian. But, we can see that religions sometimes morph into horrible monsters (making lampshades of human skin, knocking out gold teeth, stealing all possessions, starving, gassing, and making wars against peaceful nations).

We have to be ever-vigilent for morphing religion.

But, the laws of the religion, itself, are usually kind and sensible. The application of those words sometimes doesn't work. Following the 911 attack, Christians knew that they were not supposed to kill, but they felt like sitting ducks who should go after the enemy in his own country, rather than let them carry out more destruction in ours. This led to hasty wars, without an end-game strategy (how do we pull out, and how do we admit that we have not won, and what happens when the occupation of the US enrages the enemy and they gather more members?).

A lot of good people go astray. Senator Joe McCarthy's followers thought that they were eliminating communism, but it soon became apparent that the harsh rule under McCarthy was worse than having a few communists in the US (if they weren't trying to take over the nation). Even actress Lucille Ball almost was wiped out by McCarthy.

Religion should be about being kind to others, not carrying out God's vengeance. God is all-powerful, and can do his own killing. We are supposed to love all of God's children (Gay or not).
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
For negative: all the "put up with injustice because God will reward you in Heaven" stuff.

For nonsensical: cursing the fig tree because it didn't bear fruit out of season.

That'll fix that stubborn fig tree. Now I have to milk the cat.

If we're going to follow someone's rules, we should first decide if the rules are sane.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Human morality is acquired in two ways ─ the evolved part from our genes and the learnt part from our upbringing, culture, education and experience.

The evolved part includes disliking the one who harms, liking fairness and reciprocity, respecting authority, being loyal to the group, and deriving a sense of self-worth through self-denial. As well we have an evolved conscience and an evolved capacity for empathy.

So that's all built in,. Of course those tendencies and capacities compete with our needs, desires, respect for authority, group loyalty and so on.

But our dislike of the one who harms, and our like of fairness and reciprocity are the natural foundation of the golden rule, and it seems to me 'Love thy neighbor as thyself' is just an alternative phrasing of the golden rule, versions of which long predate Jesus.

At first I thought that morality has nothing to do with genes. But, come to think of it, you might have something there.

Humans are not the only creatures that "usually" don't kill their own species. Many social animals, like chimps, generally don't kill each other. However, there are documented cases in which they have. No one taught chimps to not kill. It is something that they feel inside (perhaps genetic).

Some societies don't teach morality. Vikings, for example, were self-serving pirates. Recent archaelogical evidence has shown that they were not all Norse and blond, but were virtually any nationality.

Sometimes gangs have rules to get along with fellow gang members.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
Elon Musk


Margherita Hack, Italian astrophysicist. Staunch atheist, said: I do not believe in God because I find the notion itself absurd, it is a human invention. I live perfectly without believing in God. I don't need God to behave good towards the others. Jesus' figure is essential. "Love thy neighbor as thyself"...it is extraordinary.

- What do you guys think?
Men of war will create a God of war. Men of peace will create a God of peace.
I believe Yahweh was a God of war because the warriors of that time created him in a way that reflected their values during that time. I believe Jesus was a God of peace because those same people many years later became a bit more peaceful and needed to invent a God that reflected their change in values during that time.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Elon Musk


Margherita Hack, Italian astrophysicist. Staunch atheist, said: I do not believe in God because I find the notion itself absurd, it is a human invention. I live perfectly without believing in God. I don't need God to behave good towards the others. Jesus' figure is essential. "Love thy neighbor as thyself"...it is extraordinary.

- What do you guys think?

There are other atheists who will negate this with some other thing that they can find as an excuse to negate. Anything is fine to soil it.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
That's a good point. But since the source of the historical Jesus is the New Testament, we should not make reference to the God of the Old Testament
And yet, since the New Testament wasn't written until long after Jesus died, the only thing Jesus had was Tanakh (basically the Old Testament). The only God that Jesus could be making reference to is the God of the Tanakh.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Margherita Hack, Italian astrophysicist. Staunch atheist, said: I do not believe in God because I find the notion itself absurd, it is a human invention. I live perfectly without believing in God. I don't need God to behave good towards the others. Jesus' figure is essential. "Love thy neighbor as thyself"...it is extraordinary.

- What do you guys think?
Hack was rightly named.

First, the existence is God is self-evident. But Hack confused this philosophical truism with a collection of religious mythologocal imagery and like most "atheists", then dismissed the mythos of 'God' for it being a myth. (What a genius!)

Secondly, as others have already mentioned, the 'Golden Rule" is a universal axiom that does not require Jesus to be realized.

Thirdly, Elon Musk has nothing to say that interests me. He's mostly just a buffoon with a lot of money. He's the new mascot for greed and stupidity among the greedy and stupid crowd now that they're realizing their previous mascot Donald Trump has become a laughingstock to the world. Hopefully, Musk will soon join him in that capacity.

Hey, you asked what I think! :)
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Hack was rightly named.

First, the existence is God is self-evident. But Hack confused this philosophical truism with a collection of religious mythological imagery and like most "atheists", then dismissed the mythos of 'God' for it being a myth. (What a genius!)

I guess that for rationalists and scientists, who have sacrificed their whole life to science, the notion of God can be difficult to comprehend, especially if we think of an anthropomorfized God.
I do admire her. She was really such an inspiration, I have learnt a lot from her, philisophically.

Of course...some theists here in Italy did not like her for being a staunch atheist, saying she was just Madam Mim with a Tuscan accent...:p LOL
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I guess that for rationalists and scientists, who have sacrificed their whole life to science, the notion of God can be difficult to comprehend, especially if we think of an anthropomorfized God.
I do admire her. She was really such an inspiration, I have learnt a lot from her, philisophically.

Of course...some theists here in Italy did not like her for being a staunch atheist, saying she was just Madam Mim with a Tuscan accent...:p LOL
She did not understand or even recognize the difference between God as an existential agency, God as a theological character, and God as an individual human ideal. It's no wonder she was confused! But then about 95% of the human population is equally confused by these different conceptual manifestations of 'God'. So I guess I shouldn't be so hard on her.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Jesus said to love others as we love ourselves. If we do not love ourselves then that probably lowers the bar about how we should love others.
And that's an issue. Proper morality cannot begin with considering me first in line. In this case, someone who is depressed to the point of self harm and neglect, that basically means there is no drive to behave prosocially.
But I have seen people mess around with the Golden Rule to try to make it look silly. It has to be taken in context of the rest of what He said about how to treat people.
The Golden Rule is silly when you think about it. Proper morality cannot begin with how I want to be treated. Hugs are a great example. They are a friendly gesture and many people like them. However a lot of people don't like being hugged. This creates a conflict of interest where the Golden Rule is inappropriate for the hugger to follow when reaching their arms out to hug the non-hugger. It needlessly makes the non-hugger uncomfortable and puts them between a rock and hard place of having to risk looking like a jerk to decline a hug or deal with a moment of discomfort.
This is why the Golden Rule is short sighted and not well thought out.
I think the thing about forgiveness is that Jesus is willing to forgive us when we are undeserving of forgiveness
Sounds rather rash and severely extreme to say we are all unforgiving. I would say cruel and abusive even (and I'm glad I see it that way now).
It sort of works for non Christians also. If you want God to forgive you one day, you should try to forgive others.
Some people don't deserve it.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Elon Musk


Margherita Hack, Italian astrophysicist. Staunch atheist, said: I do not believe in God because I find the notion itself absurd, it is a human invention. I live perfectly without believing in God. I don't need God to behave good towards the others. Jesus' figure is essential. "Love thy neighbor as thyself"...it is extraordinary.

- What do you guys think?
Nice short video with Elon Musk. I like him (what is shown here)

I also like the teaching of Jesus. Nice how Elon Musk explained the "eye for an eye" vs "turn other cheek". He has wisdom
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
And yet, since the New Testament wasn't written until long after Jesus died, the only thing Jesus had was Tanakh (basically the Old Testament). The only God that Jesus could be making reference to is the God of the Tanakh.

Same as for Socrates.
We know Socrates thanks to Plato's work...but was Plato 100% faithful to the historical Socrates or took some liberties?
 
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