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Atheists acknowledging historical Jesus' goodness

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
What do you guys think?
The teachings and morals attributed to Jesus are generally (but not exclusively) positive but that isn't the first or last source of similar moral teaching and certainly not the first or last of any moral teaching. The only reason we're talking about Jesus in this context is the historical dominance of Christianity.

There is also the question of how accurately the quotes and opinions attributed to him after his death actually were and the wide ranges of interpretations different people are able to take from them (hence the massive range of religions, sects and denominations or whom Jesus is a significant figure in some way). Even is Jesus was a great man, I'm not sure how well that greatness survived him.

I agree that most of the general moral principles we're talking about here are good, but I'd suggest it's not that they're good because they're attributed to Jesus but that they were attributed to Jesus because they are good.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I agree that most of the general moral principles we're talking about here are good, but I'd suggest it's not that they're good because they're attributed to Jesus but that they were attributed to Jesus because they are good.
Definitely great reasoning.
And this matches with the conviction that all religions, have been searching for it. Since ever.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In my view Jesus (a) Gospels are mostly about Welayat and Imamate, and the position he has as light of the world so long as he in this world.

Almost all of Gospels is found paraphrased somehow in Shiite hadiths except the latter, the Imams (a) apply it to themselves (but include Jesus (a) as an instance of this position in the past):

Gospels and Shiite hadiths match up. | Religious Forums

The last quote I from the Gospels was about "judge not lest...", and we see parallels in that in our hadiths.

I will continue to show parallels. I believe Gospels over all (mostly) are from God with exception I don't include the works of Paul as part of the Gospels. So aside from that, most it to me is definitely from God and is about the position of his chosen elite but God's Revelations through Jesus (a) and Jesus (a) expresses it without a knot on his tongue unlike Moses (a) had due to the situation he found himself in.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Nice short video with Elon Musk. I like him (what is shown here)

I also like the teaching of Jesus. Nice how Elon Musk explained the "eye for an eye" vs "turn other cheek". He has wisdom
Wisdom? It must come in dribs and drabs then - given he lost it whilst calling someone a paedophile after the guy made fun of his non-useful suggestion during a cave rescue. :oops:
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Margherita Hack, Italian astrophysicist. Staunch atheist, said: I do not believe in God because I find the notion itself absurd, it is a human invention. I live perfectly without believing in God. I don't need God to behave good towards the others. Jesus' figure is essential. "Love thy neighbor as thyself"...it is extraordinary.

You've probably heard of this: "Christian atheism is a form of Christianity that rejects the theistic claims of Christianity, but draws its beliefs and practices from Jesus' life and/or teachings as recorded in the New Testament Gospels and other sources."

I just don't get it. Remove the supernatural parts, and the story of the life of Jesus is ordinary. How many people do we all know who are kind and benevolent, and lead lives of self-denial and service to others? It's maybe one in a thousand, but there are billions of people now and billions more throughout history.

So what was that life? Once we remove the supernaturalism, it's a guy promoting religion and his idea of moral behavior. What is special or exemplary there? How many people dedicate their lives to their religious beliefs and try to teach people to be good people? Was that life more exemplary than Billy Graham's? If so, how? Was it more exemplary than Schindler's life? Not to me. Jesus' life was much more ordinary and much less heroic than Schindler's. It's only a minority of people who live lives that are morally exemplary, but among them, Jesus is just another one. Correct me if I'm overlooking something here that distinguishes Jesus life sans the miracles from thousands of others.

Personally, I think one can live his life many better ways than by promoting religion, so the life of Jesus is not something I would admire. I don't consider proselytizing or living a religious life a good way to live or a good thing to be doing. I understand that for the believer, my words are wrong, that that was a very good way to live, but why would unbelievers admire that life or regard it as exemplary? Why would the woman quoted think that even if Jesus were just a man or, presumably, completely fictional, his life as depicted in the Gospels is still exemplary? As I said, I just don't get why unbelievers would single out that life.

Maybe what they like is Jesus' moral code, but I find it flawed. I find the Sermon on the Mount to be a terrible piece of advice. Blessed are the meek? Believers change that to blessed are the humble, since meekness is not a virtue, but rather, a poverty of spirit, an inability to assert oneself where appropriate. That's not blessed, so they change it to mean something closer to humble. But that's not blessed, either, just polite and a smart way to deal with people. Then throw in the admonitions to be longsuffering, to turn the other cheek, and to accept one's plight in exchange for pie in the sky after death, and what you have there is the message one gives those he intends to exploit in the hope that they will be meek and docile rather than rise up. This is not exemplary. I would never teach my children to behave that way. I would tell them to be strong, to be people of principle and courage, to be leaders - not that stuff.

Turning the other cheek is also a bad idea, which the believer converts to forgiveness, but it's not forgiveness. It's just more of the same slave ethics, and it invites further violence. It reminds me of the frat hazings or basic training scenes where people are being abused and forced to ask for more. I would also never give that advice to my children. Much better options include walking away and attempting to negotiate a peace. Putting your hands up to protect one's face makes a lot more sense than offering the other cheek. In fact, even if one is just trying to make a point, offer the tender cheek, not the fresh one.

I could go on naming other bad moral teaching, such as that finding somebody sexually attractive is adultery, or that it is ever appropriate to remove body parts (eyes, hands, testicles). Is this good advice to give people?: "Take therefore no thought for tomorrow: for tomorrow shall take thought of the things for itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." How about this?: "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes [shall][be] they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

If I thought Jesus was a god, then this argument goes out the window. But what is the reason an unbeliever should turn to the Gospels for life or moral advice?
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Wisdom? It must come in dribs and drabs then - given he lost it whilst calling someone a paedophile after the guy made fun of his non-useful suggestion during a cave rescue. :oops:
Making fun of others is not wise. Even the wise sometimes put such people in their place. This still does not say something about Elon Musk, more about the "fun making of others" person
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
At first I thought that morality has nothing to do with genes. But, come to think of it, you might have something there.

Humans are not the only creatures that "usually" don't kill their own species. Many social animals, like chimps, generally don't kill each other. However, there are documented cases in which they have. No one taught chimps to not kill. It is something that they feel inside (perhaps genetic).

Some societies don't teach morality. Vikings, for example, were self-serving pirates. Recent archaelogical evidence has shown that they were not all Norse and blond, but were virtually any nationality.

Sometimes gangs have rules to get along with fellow gang members.
The genetic sources of our morality have been the subject of focused study going back to at least the 1990s. Here's a summary of one such experiment (from Mariano Sigman's The Secret Life of the Mind (2015) pp. 31-2) ─

One of the simplest and most striking scientific experiments to demonstrate babies' moral judgments was done by Karen Wynn in a wooden puppet theater with three characters: a triangle, a square and a circle. In the experiment, the triangle goes up a hill. Every once in a while it backs up only later to continue to ascend. this gives an impression that the triangle has an intention (climbing to the very top) and is struggling to achieve it [...] we spontaneously assign it beliefs and create narrative explanations of what we observe.

A square shows up in the middle of this scene and bumps into the triangle on purpose, sending it down the hill. Seen with the eyes of an adult, the square is clearly despicable. As this scene is replayed, the circumstances change. While the triangle is going up, a circle appears and pushes it upwards. To us the circle becomes noble, helpful and gentlemanly [...]

After watching one object helping the triangle climb the hill, and the other bumping it down, infants were encouraged to reach for one of them. Twenty-six of the twenty-eight (twelve out of twelve six-month-olds) chose the helper [...]
Such repeatable experiments are the basis of the observation that part of our morality is from our genes.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Making fun of others is not wise. Even the wise sometimes put such people in their place. This still does not say something about Elon Musk, more about the "fun making of others" person
I think you need some lessons in the gravity of what one utters, given that calling someone a paedophile could lead to them being attacked or killed - this has happened to innocent people - so it says much about Musk as to being a rather loose cannon. Not someone I would like to see in charge of large amounts of money, or in power over others, even if he is rather bright. Nasty people often are. If he can't control his temper over such a slight he perhaps needs some anger management or therapy - plus, he won his case of course (large amounts of money tends to ensure such) and left the guy in a bad situation. Musk - really nice guy - NOT! :oops:
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Elon Musk


Margherita Hack, Italian astrophysicist. Staunch atheist, said: I do not believe in God because I find the notion itself absurd, it is a human invention. I live perfectly without believing in God. I don't need God to behave good towards the others. Jesus' figure is essential. "Love thy neighbor as thyself"...it is extraordinary.

- What do you guys think?
A point I would not here is this .
Jesus is universally known. The question is, does the content of his teachings alone sufficient for this status of Jesus in human civilization? I do not think so. It's the theological claims of Christians and Muslims about Jesus that is primarily responsible. What this does is that many historical figures who had much more original and ahead of their time ethical thoughts are much less well known because nobody made theological claims about them
This seems unfair to me

So for example this.
Indian Ethics: Classical Traditions and Contemporary Challenges: Volume I
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member
I think you need some lessons in the gravity of what one utters
No, I do not need that at all. It was a great reply of Musk, to this "pedo guy", who started all this himself, by making a stupid and harsh pedo-remark to Musk. I am very glad that Musk won this case. That other man hopefully learned a good lesson, to keep his "masked pedo acquisations" to himself. Maybe he did even try to embarrass and upset/anger Musk on purpose, to get Musk to do something stupid, so that he can sue Musk later on (many nowadays try to win the "lotery" suing rich people...I "hate" this trend)

That guy started his pedo acquisation with "stick your submarine where it hurts"...a clear sexual remark, homosexual even. Very bad. Musk could have rightly sued him for this. What does this man think, to say such a thing to Musk?

And by the way, you did not read my reply to @Estro Felino correctly. I explicitly said "I like him (what is shown here)". Adding this on purpose, and well thought, thinking "I do not know much about Musk, so I just say "I like this" of Musk". And I specified exactly what I liked. So, clearly did not say that I liked everything of Musk (because I don't know everything of Musk)
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Elon Musk


Margherita Hack, Italian astrophysicist. Staunch atheist, said: I do not believe in God because I find the notion itself absurd, it is a human invention. I live perfectly without believing in God. I don't need God to behave good towards the others. Jesus' figure is essential. "Love thy neighbor as thyself"...it is extraordinary.

- What do you guys think?
Elon Musk


Margherita Hack, Italian astrophysicist. Staunch atheist, said: I do not believe in God because I find the notion itself absurd, it is a human invention. I live perfectly without believing in God. I don't need God to behave good towards the others. Jesus' figure is essential. "Love thy neighbor as thyself"...it is extraordinary.

- What do you guys think?

Some theists assert that infidels (non-believers) will go to hell, and it doesn't matter how good they are.

Many people "think" that they are going to heaven, but they have sinned horribly. We've just seen several Religious Right presidents lead us down the road to hell. Watergate, Iran Contra, torture camps, war crimes, war itself. . . etc.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions - Wikipedia

An unknown author published an often quoted saying in 1828 in a London newspaper: "The road to hell is paed with good intentions."

Though the wording was different, the sentiment was the same in Rambach's 1730 book "The road to hell is paved with good resollutions" (translation from German).

These sayings ring true today.

Iranians studying college in America thought that the Aytollah Khomeni would bring back the old morality of their bible. Instead, he ordered a fatwa (Mafia style hit) to kill all Iranians educated in America, because they have been morally corrupted.

It is this predilection for violence and extreme behavior (always on behalf of God) that has made life on earth hellish.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I think we can do better for sources of morality, especially without the judgement, guilt, shame and especially the angry and violent dad he has.

Wyatt Earp, legendary marshall, took guns away from everyone but law enforcement, and thereby cleaned up his town. He advocated gun restriction for others, but not for himself.

Isn't God doing the same? He (God) says that we can't kill, but apparently He (God) can.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
That's a good point. But since the source of the historical Jesus is the New Testament, we should not make reference to the God of the Old Testament

The NT isn't that much better.
It's a giant guilt trip.

And let's not forget that the "guilt" part is rooted in the OT.
Without the OT, there is no need for a "savior" / the NT.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
No, I do not need that at all. It was a great reply of Musk, to this "pedo guy", who started all this himself, by making a stupid and harsh pedo-remark to Musk. I am very glad that Musk won this case. That other man hopefully learned a good lesson, to keep his "masked pedo acquisations" to himself. Maybe he did even try to embarrass and upset/anger Musk on purpose, to get Musk to do something stupid, so that he can sue Musk later on (many nowadays try to win the "lotery" suing rich people...I "hate" this trend)

That guy started his pedo acquisation with "stick your submarine where it hurts"...a clear sexual remark, homosexual even. Very bad. Musk could have rightly sued him for this. What does this man think, to say such a thing to Musk?
I don't know where you got this 'pedo-guy' from. The offensive remark the Brit made was quite a normal one for Brits (and not sexual) - to shove it up his *** - but the response from Musk was rather typical of the low-brows, who might consider any foreigner living in Thailand to be a paedophile, even though the guy was married to a Thai. Is that what you think?

You surprise me for trying to maintain a reasonable image yet defend this idiot. :oops:

Musk made a rather nasty mistake and just didn't own up to it.

As to the allegations about making money - that is just pathetic. And not worthy of anyone to make. :mad:
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member
I don't know where you got this 'pedo-guy' from
"Shove it up your ***". There are plenty guys who abuse boys, that seems quite obvious to me, hence I am not surprised Musk saw/felt this too

The offensive remark the Brit made was quite a normal one for Brits (and not sexual) - to shove it up his ***
Well, such a remark is not "quite normal" in my view, so I understand Musk

but the response from Musk was rather typical of the low-brows, who might consider any foreigner living in Thailand to be a paedophile,
First, to me "paedophile" and "shove it up your ***" are both bad, not one worse than the other

Musk clearly stated that he did not "think" that this man was a paedophile, he just replied a nasty remark with another nasty remark. No more no less. I am glad the judge saw that too. The man tried to "gain" 190 million dollar by this, that clearly proves to me how "bad" the man is himself.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
You surprise me for trying to maintain a reasonable image yet defend this idiot. :oops:
IF Hitler did 1 good thing, I would acknowledge he did 1 good thing. Of course I would acknowledge the bad things too.

When I need to give my opinion on something, I am good to leave out negative things about the other, just focus on this 1 thing.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Elon Musk


Margherita Hack, Italian astrophysicist. Staunch atheist, said: I do not believe in God because I find the notion itself absurd, it is a human invention. I live perfectly without believing in God. I don't need God to behave good towards the others. Jesus' figure is essential. "Love thy neighbor as thyself"...it is extraordinary.

- What do you guys think?

I doubt there are few if any atheists who don't acknowledge that there is value in some of the things that this Jesus figure allegedly said.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
The NT isn't that much better.
It's a giant guilt trip.

And let's not forget that the "guilt" part is rooted in the OT.
Without the OT, there is no need for a "savior" / the NT.
That was something that broke me away from the Church as I struggled to reconcile not only the violence of the OT, but also how many stories of it came from other cultures.
But I eventually realized and accepted without an OT there is no need or use for a NT, which means no messiah.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Elon Musk


Margherita Hack, Italian astrophysicist. Staunch atheist, said: I do not believe in God because I find the notion itself absurd, it is a human invention. I live perfectly without believing in God. I don't need God to behave good towards the others. Jesus' figure is essential. "Love thy neighbor as thyself"...it is extraordinary.

- What do you guys think?
What would Musk say to: "it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven"?
 
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