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Atheists and their jargon of insults

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You can not understand the explanation.

Science is the definitions, axioms, and all experimental results including the nature of consciousness and language as they apply to the antecedents and to the observers. This is modern metaphysics.
Again your intentional ignorance is apparent. axioms are math not science. Methodological Naturalism is based on the predictive properties of scientific methods to falsify hypotheses and theories. Antecedents ar evidence for future predictions.

By definition science is not based on metaphysics, Your English skills remain defiant to understand science on the basic level.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
That would be my point. It is not about assuming there is some entity, and it is not about assuming there isn't such an entity. Let go of assumption. What do we *know*. What can be demonstrated?

The only thing certain is that we don't even know the formatting of either reality or consciousness. On this basis no conclusions can be drawn. If you don't know anything beyond 99% certainty then nothing can be eliminated. We don't even know the nature of time.

It might be obvious to you that reality arose naturally just as it is but it is hardly obvious to science.

As to there being a proper way to live, that is a wholly subjective concept that cannot help but be different, and uniquely specific to each unique individual. How we reconcile those inherent differences and develop a social consensus is a political matter.

I disagree.

George Carlin said the ten commandments boil down to "be honest" but, frankly, I think this is the minimum standard. I think it is advantageous to the human species to be family oriented. That means each individual respects his parents and cares for his children etc. This hardly means that failure with one or more family members is any kind of "sin" merely that people are supposed to care for one another and especially family. We're supposed to have values because this is part of "being honest". we are supposed to try to have fun and leave the world a better place. Many of us who concentrate on the former will probably party hearty while being annoyed by pitchforks in the posterior.

Greed is a deadly sin that our society has raised to the only good.

Yes, to each his own but we all need guidelines because it's very easy to fall into evil. Whole nations go mad and murder six million of their own citizens. What Carlin should have mentioned that everyone's first duty in being honest is to be honest with themselves. This country is less than a Hitler away from stacking bodies.

At our ignorant core, we are no different than any other pack or social mammal.

This is just an assumption. Humans and animals are distinct because they act on what they know and we act on what we believe. This is shown by experiment. It is reality and we ignore it at our own risk.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
When talking about the real world, we do not get to arbitrarily create the boundaries and rules that govern the real world. We do not get to decide the foundational premises of the real world system, they already exist.

This is another assumption. You believe "theories" are "laws of nature" that put boundaries on what can happen. Despite our virtual perfect ignorance and total inability to make prediction you assume that reality is constrained by math and laws.

The word 'assumption' is meaningless on its own. Simply using the word 'assumption' provides no indication as to the confidence attached to the assumption.

Yes. I assume Moscow exists is a substantially different thing than assuming there are an infinite number of pyramids built with an infinite number of ramps. I'm 99.9% certain of the former and 99.9% certain the latter is false (well, 95% anyway).

But all assumptions are superstitions and abstractions. Most of the basic assumptions held by the inventors of science are false. The inventors of religion held some true assumptions and a few that were and still are unfalsifiable.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
This is another assumption. You believe "theories" are "laws of nature" that put boundaries on what can happen. Despite our virtual perfect ignorance and total inability to make prediction you assume that reality is constrained by math and laws.

Apropos of nothing in particular I was once sitting at my desk working when the room started turning orange. I didn't notice it immediately but when I did I saw that despite the drapes being drawn there was orange pouring in between the cracks and through the fabric. It was astounding. I looked out and beheld what must be the most incredible thing I've ever seen and I've seen many many very remarkable things. It was 25 minutes till sunset and most of the sky toward the sooth and west were full of mammatus clouds.
1701654226359.png

https://www.interaliamag.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/mammatus-clouds-2.jpg

Due to the odd lighting they were orange and it turned everything orange from the trees to the lakes. Very very bright orange.

I went outside to get a better look and the most remarkable thing: People were just going on about their business as if nothing was the least bit remiss. ...Cars driving by and people walking about!

Another time I saw a rainbow around the moon and a friend called to alert me before i had a chance to call them. Indeed family called from as far a four states away to tell me. I never heard anyone else mention it.

As a child I heard brownian movement and could always see several meteors per minute which were apparently droplets of water hitting the atmosphere.

No, I never did believe the sky was blue and species evolve. I never did believe that only scientists make sense. I never believed anything I heard and only some of what I saw. I don't believe in science; I understand it. I just don't believe it. By the same token I don't believe there is no God nor no justification for religions. I don't partake but to each his own. 'Tis better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Smoke 'em if ya gottem.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The only thing certain is that we don't even know the formatting of either reality or consciousness. On this basis no conclusions can be drawn. If you don't know anything beyond 99% certainty then nothing can be eliminated. We don't even know the nature of time.

It might be obvious to you that reality arose naturally just as it is but it is hardly obvious to science.

Not having a complete understanding, in this case of the Cosmos and reality, does not mean that anything is possible either. Just because we can imagine it does not make it possible. We learn this lesson repeatedly. We also know that simply lacking 100% understanding does not mean that we can't know anything. All we can do is build our core of knowledge and understanding incrementally, acknowledging and learning from our mistakes along the way.

It is not obvious to anyone how reality arose, for we lack sufficient information upon which to make a determination. How reality arose is indeterminable and unknown. What we do know with great confidence is that of what we have collectively observed of reality over the millennia is that there are clear, knowable, and predictable natural processes that make up reality. This is what we can speak confidently about. Anything anyone wants to imagine beyond this is fiction unless and until it is evidenced in some way.


I disagree.

George Carlin said the ten commandments boil down to "be honest" but, frankly, I think this is the minimum standard. I think it is advantageous to the human species to be family oriented. That means each individual respects his parents and cares for his children etc. This hardly means that failure with one or more family members is any kind of "sin" merely that people are supposed to care for one another and especially family. We're supposed to have values because this is part of "being honest". we are supposed to try to have fun and leave the world a better place. Many of us who concentrate on the former will probably party hearty while being annoyed by pitchforks in the posterior.

Greed is a deadly sin that our society has raised to the only good.

Yes, to each his own but we all need guidelines because it's very easy to fall into evil. Whole nations go mad and murder six million of their own citizens. What Carlin should have mentioned that everyone's first duty in being honest is to be honest with themselves. This country is less than a Hitler away from stacking bodies.

No one is denying that we need rules and standards that enable us to live communally, in societies. Yet there are valid, yet conflicting concerns that will always require some manner of compromise or concession. Take your family values stance for example. Not everyone has the capacity to be a good parent. Is the family unit inviolate such that we have no say in how parents treat their children, or are there times when society can an should step in? You say that every individual should respect their parents, but what if ones parents are not worthy of respect? Real life is much, much, more complicated than you seem to acknowledge here.


This is just an assumption. Humans and animals are distinct because they act on what they know and we act on what we believe. This is shown by experiment. It is reality and we ignore it at our own risk.

There is that 'assumption' word again. :)

We can induce belief in animals. We can create conditions in which pushing a button releases a treat. Later, even after the button no longer consistently provides a treat when pushed, there is belief instilled in the subject animal that pushing the button can and will result in a treat.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This is another assumption. You believe "theories" are "laws of nature" that put boundaries on what can happen. Despite our virtual perfect ignorance and total inability to make prediction you assume that reality is constrained by math and laws.

Reality is not constrained by math, theories, and laws, reality is what it is. Math is simply an analytic tool, like language, we use to describe and communicate what we think about. Theories and laws of nature are descriptions (using math and language) of the reality we observe, always amendable with our incrementally expanding understanding.


Yes. I assume Moscow exists is a substantially different thing than assuming there are an infinite number of pyramids built with an infinite number of ramps. I'm 99.9% certain of the former and 99.9% certain the latter is false (well, 95% anyway).

Perfect. Since we both acknowledge that confidence can vary in regards to what we "assume", how about we come up with a different word that describes our confidence in the existence of Moscow, and yet another word that describes our confidence in the existence of an infinite number of built pyramids.

But all assumptions are superstitions and abstractions.

You are being disingenuous here. All thought is abstraction so you are not really saying anything in that regard. The word superstition has a conventional and common usage that renders your sentence nonsensical.

Most of the basic assumptions held by the inventors of science are false. The inventors of religion held some true assumptions and a few that were and still are unfalsifiable.

Then let us disregard the assumptions held by the inventors of science, and instead, let's focus our attention on how scientific investigation is conducted by the modern scientist of today.

The inventors of religion may have held some true assumptions, none of which would relate to the fictional entities portrayed in their religious myths, which I expect are the unfalsifiable assumptions to which you refer.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Not having a complete understanding, in this case of the Cosmos and reality, does not mean that anything is possible either. Just because we can imagine it does not make it possible. We learn this lesson repeatedly. We also know that simply lacking 100% understanding does not mean that we can't know anything. All we can do is build our core of knowledge and understanding incrementally, acknowledging and learning from our mistakes along the way.

Of course I agree.

BUT where most people believe we have a lot of knowledge and understanding because they confuse technology with understanding the reality is that we know only the tiniest fraction of everything there is to know.

What we do know with great confidence is that of what we have collectively observed of reality over the millennia

Science is less than 500 years old. We can't see anything that doesn't appear in experiment. You are simply assuming that any belief that doesn't show up in experiment is "supernatural" and that experiment can see enough of all reality to exclude this supernatural. Meanwhile you simply ignore experiment that doesn't support your belief such as experiment that shows we see only what we believe and we misunderstand one another.
Science has shown over and over that the more closely you look at identical objects that they are never identical. From rabbits to snowflakes there aren't two identical things in the entire universe. What exists is individual.

We have infinite ability to delude ourselves and see hat e want to see.

We can induce belief in animals. We can create conditions in which pushing a button releases a treat. Later, even after the button no longer consistently provides a treat when pushed, there is belief instilled in the subject animal that pushing the button can and will result in a treat.

This isn't a "belief". Animals don't do abstraction. It is pattern recognition which is one of the three or four most important chacteristics of consciousness, and it is experience. Remember consciousness is the wiring of the "brain" and experience in every species except homo omnisciencis.

It is a manifestation of individual animal consciousness.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Math is simply an analytic tool, like language, we use to describe and communicate what we think about.

No.

We speak in abstractions that everyone parses differently.

Ancient Language was an analytic tool because it was metaphysical. Homo sapiens didn't experience thinking but they could use their mathematical language to allow others to peek inside their brains.

Even "thought" is an abstraction and as such can not be communicated. Math is an abstraction since there are no two identical things in existence. The only reason our poor methodology of applying math to reality even works is that math is logic quantified and reality is logic manifest. These logics are closely correlated so it "seems" reality is mathematical but it is NOT.

Consciousness in all other species is logic incarnate. We think in one dimension and are in no way logical.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Perfect. Since we both acknowledge that confidence can vary in regards to what we "assume", how about we come up with a different word that describes our confidence in the existence of Moscow, and yet another word that describes our confidence in the existence of an infinite number of built pyramids.

I usually do you different words. However on things of which I'm 99.9% certain they appear as a part of a tautology and it is up to the reader to challenge the tautology. I can't prove Moscow exists but I can show various types of evidence and a satellite picture.

Things with a .1% probability I use in tautologies as well and the reader must show they do exist. 5% possibilities like an infinite number of pyramids built with ramps I usually just call "improbable". I also use words like "unlikely".

But any theory that rests on the assumption that Moscow exists is still dependent on that assumption. If it is shown there never was such a place the theory collapses. Most of the assumptions of the inventors of science, Darwin, and Egyptology are false. It doesn't matter what word you use to describe a belief it is still a belief. A model is a model but also a belief. Language is a mess and people are not in the habit of parsing words as they are intended. This goes many times over when they believe the words apply to religious beliefs so they insult the speaker whether they are or not.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Then let us disregard the assumptions held by the inventors of science, and instead, let's focus our attention on how scientific investigation is conducted by the modern scientist of today.

A construct can be no more strong than its foundation. Even a boat must have a strong keel.

The inventors of religion may have held some true assumptions, none of which would relate to the fictional entities portrayed in their religious myths, which I expect are the unfalsifiable assumptions to which you refer.

The existence of God is unfalsifiable at this time. It's hardly impossible that the concept can be disproven through elimination or come to be seen but the former is most improbable and the second might depend on something even more powerful than experiment. There is very small chance we'll ever know barring rapture.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
We can't see anything that doesn't appear in experiment.

Really? Come on now. For most of us with some level of vision, as in not blind, we can't help but see lots of things. Are you trying to speak metaphorically in some way. What would be your literal and explicit point, not shrouded in metaphor?
We have infinite ability to delude ourselves and see hat e want to see.

Which is why we have to make a conscious and concerted effort to mitigate that propensity to the best of our abilities. And before you say that it is not possible, the fact that you and I are aware of self-deception tells me that we can.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
For that matter, what's it even supposed to mean?

A "metaphysical language" is a natural language that contains the means of acquiring knowledge and the acquired knowledge. This is best seen in things like a bird's song, a prairie dog's warnings, a bee's dance, or computer code which contains only eight words and breaks Zipf's Law. Such languages can not be translated but they can be understood through modeling or diodes.

Just as modern metaphysics is premises and definitions that create the formatting for experiment interpretation, natural metaphysical language is the formatting of a different kind of science based on observation and logic rather than experiment. It works because while we are never logical the rest of nature and reality are completely logical. We are relegated to using experiment.

Evidence is extensive.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Really? Come on now. For most of us with some level of vision, as in not blind, we can't help but see lots of things. Are you trying to speak metaphorically in some way. What would be your literal and explicit point, not shrouded in metaphor?

It doesn't matter if you are blind or not. You can't see what you don't believe. Your mind and eye skip right over it like it doesn't exist. No matter how huge, how massive, or how important a thing is you won't see it.

No metaphor.

We often come to believe things upon first seeing them and this confuses us into believing we see what's there.

Look and See Science has made a shambles of the world. This is no reflection on real science which is distinct from belief in Peers and "evidence".
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
A "metaphysical language" is a natural language that contains the means of acquiring knowledge and the acquired knowledge. This is best seen in things like a bird's song, a prairie dog's warnings, a bee's dance, or computer code which contains only eight words and breaks Zipf's Law. Such languages can not be translated but they can be understood through modeling or diodes.
As I said: Evidence? And what's this even supposed to mean?
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
A construct can be no more strong than its foundation. Even a boat must have a strong keel.

Why assume a faulty foundation remains? Why can it not have been razed and restarted afresh? The beauty of science and the scientific process is exactly this feature of reevaluation, reassessment, and freely discarding that which fails to survive that process. A feature not found in Philosophy or Religion.

The existence of God is unfalsifiable at this time. It's hardly impossible that the concept can be disproven through elimination or come to be seen but the former is most improbable and the second might depend on something even more powerful than experiment. There is very small chance we'll ever know barring rapture.

Of course we know. We know exactly how concepts of 'gods' came to be invented and how those concepts evolved over time as cultures changed and grew in size. There is no question in this regard.

Now, if you want to evaluate the notion of some entity being responsible for creating reality, within the framework of our current objective understanding of reality, we would have to conclude that there is no bases upon which to suppose such entities are even possible in reality, let alone propose that they actually exist, and if existing actually did the creating that is suggested.

No, all we can do is acknowledge reality but say nothing as to how it came to be.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It doesn't matter if you are blind or not. You can't see what you don't believe. Your mind and eye skip right over it like it doesn't exist. No matter how huge, how massive, or how important a thing is you won't see it.

No metaphor.

We often come to believe things upon first seeing them and this confuses us into believing we see what's there.

Look and See Science has made a shambles of the world. This is no reflection on real science which is distinct from belief in Peers and "evidence".

Fortunately, we do not rely solely on eyesight alone. Indeed, given our current level of knowledge and technical prowess, we can create tools and instruments that surpass our biological senses.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Which is why we have to make a conscious and concerted effort to mitigate that propensity to the best of our abilities. And before you say that it is not possible, the fact that you and I are aware of self-deception tells me that we can.

We are each different and have different capabilities.

I am talking about commonalities. It is commonalities that define reality when you think in abstractions. Our species sees what it believes and is illogical because our words are parsed and our perception dependent on models and beliefs. Unlike any other species we think in abstractions.

Once you can identify commonalities then you are more able to see things that differ as anomalies.

This is the root of the problem for homo omnisciencis. All of our premises and definitions are based on old beliefs derived from abstract language. Just like religion these old beliefs go back to the "tower of babel". And just like religion they are confusions that arose from misinterpretation of Ancient Language. The human race has been on a 4000 year detour. Only reason and science can get us back on track and, God willing, lead to Golden Age 2.0

On our current track we'll stumble into an extinction within a century; not a bottleneck, an extinction.

Civility should be he norm for our species.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Why assume a faulty foundation remains? Why can it not have been razed and restarted afresh?

It couldda been. It still could. But all the old premises and definitions survive. It is very unusual for anybody or any field to go back and examine foundational beliefs.

Of course we know. We know exactly how concepts of 'gods' came to be invented and how those concepts evolved over time as cultures changed and grew in size. There is no question in this regard.

Why do you assume this? The word "God(s)" was used many centuries before anyone sat down and defined it for posterity.

Now, if you want to evaluate the notion of some entity being responsible for creating reality, within the framework of our current objective understanding of reality, we would have to conclude that there is no bases upon which to suppose such entities are even possible in reality, let alone propose that they actually exist, and if existing actually did the creating that is suggested.

I do not choose to do this. I can embrace my ignorance because it is the natural state of man and life itself.

Fortunately, we do not rely solely on eyesight alone. Indeed, given our current level of knowledge and technical prowess, we can create tools and instruments that surpass our biological senses.

Irrelevant. If you can't see it you also can't feel, hear, or otherwise sense it (did I ever mention ancient people believed they had hundreds of senses?).

There is a large stone on the east side of the Great Pyramid that is hot in October and cold in April and it's been this way for a hundred years. Nobody ever noticed despite the traffic because it doesn't make "sense". It is not believed so a person might warm himself on it on a cool October evening without ever even noticing. Things we don't believe lie outside of our experience and knowledge until we do believe. It is the nature of homo omnisciencis.
 
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