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Atheists are more pro-life than Christians

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
What does hating women have to do with this? How'd you come up with that?
It's a common pro-choice argument that you see quite often. To oppose abortion (or even fail to grant it anything less than full unquestioning support) is misogyny. The sincere belief that a viable fetus has moral value is just a cover for what is really a desire to punish sexually liberated women. Or so the narrative goes.

What ramifications does recognizing that a fœtus is a human life have to you?
That outside rare and tragic circumstances of medical necessity it is immoral to destroy a human fetus. I see no moral distinction between (most) abortions and infanticide. The taking of innocent human life for no other reason than adult convenience is the moral crime of our times.

Is it the species or genetic pattern you value, or some other quality? Would you feel the same aborting a dog or cow fœtus?
This is a diversion from the issue. Animal life does not carry the same moral weight as human life. That does not mean we should be cruel to animals but as far as abortion is concerned the moral consideration is strictly concerned with human life. And all that human potential which has been thrown away. It's going to be karmic when the population really begins to age.

It spoke volumes to our moral insanity (on the issue of animal life) when people were outraged that a zoo had to shoot a gorilla to save a human child. Yes, the child should never have been there but there was no question that the zoo did the right thing in the circumstances. Being upset that a gorilla died is sentiment. Thinking it was a bad thing to kill a gorilla to save a human child is sentimentality. A culpable abandonment of moral reason for selfish emotion.
 
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Heyo

Veteran Member
Even if one limits "pro-life" to "anti-abortion" (something that I disagree with) atheists are still more arguably pro-life than Christians. Atheists tend to support Planned Parenthood. That organization is falsely maligned as an abortion mill. They provide far more than that. They provide birth control to those that cannot afford it. As a result abortions are lower in areas that have a PP office available. To me the supposed goal of anti-abortion people should be fewer abortions. Planned Parenthood deals with the entire gamut of reproduction and as a result people that don't want to become pregnant in the first place do not do so.

That is a win win I would say.
It's not just Planned Parenthood. When you view the statistics of other countries, the availability of legal, affordable abortions correlate with fewer abortion overall. It seems counter intuitive, but if you are against abortion, you should favour it to be legal.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
It's a common pro-choice argument that you see quite often. To oppose abortion (or even fail to grant it anything less than full unquestioning support) is misogyny. The sincere belief that a viable fetus has moral value is just a cover for what is really a desire to punish sexually liberated women. Or so the narrative goes.
The other narrative says that a one hour old embryo, for instance, is a child. When in fact it is indistinguishable from the foetus of an amoeba. Unless it is analysed by a biochemist.


That outside rare and tragic circumstances of medical necessity it is immoral to destroy a human fetus. I see no moral distinction between (most) abortions and infanticide. The taking of innocent human life for no other reason than adult convenience is the moral crime of our times.
Suppose I have been raped, and I dispose the side effects of that rape. Would you call that "convenience"?
This is diversion from the issue. Animal life does not carry the same moral weight as human life. That does not mean we should be cruel to animals but as far as abortion is concerned the moral consideration is strictly concerned with human life. And all that human potential which has been thrown away. It's going to be karmic when the population really begins to age.
We don't seem to be on the verge of extinction. At this rate, to reduce the throughput of new humans will be required to really reduce CO2 emissions.


t spoke volumes to our moral insanity (on the issue of animal life) when people were outraged that a zoo had to shoot a gorilla to save a human child. Yes, the child should never have been there but there was no question that the zoo did the right thing in the circumstances. Being upset that a gorilla died is sentiment. Thinking it was a bad thing to kill a gorilla to save a human child is sentimentality. A culpable abandonment of moral reason for selfish emotion.
Again. Two human cells are not a child. It does not even have anything close to a nervous system, while gorillas can suffer. Ever seen a blastocysts screaming n pain? So, it is perfectly logical to see a moral case for phenotypes that can objectively suffer, vs. two cells that have no other quality, at this stage, than a slight difference in DNA from the formers. It is indeed difficult to make a moral case based only on some biochemical characteristics, and not the rest.

Ciao

- viole
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm in favor of the SCOTUS abortion rules and I hope they survive their imminent testing. I believe that women are in charge of their own fertility.

I'm opposed to the death penalty because I don't the state should kill its own citizens; and because there will always be errors; and because those sentenced to death will be disproportionately from the underprivileged sections of the population.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Yeah, yeah, libs and leftists love to kill little babies in the womb (or approve of it), but rush to save brutal murderers from the death penalty. Whatever helps you sleep at night. (See, it can go both ways. ) :rolleyes::D

(Not all atheists are libs or leftist, either. )
What ever happened to forgiveness? I don't remember Jesus meek and mild talking of revenge. Or did I miss that bit?
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Yeah, yeah, libs and leftists love to kill little babies in the womb (or approve of it), but rush to save brutal murderers from the death penalty. Whatever helps you sleep at night. (See, it can go both ways. ) :rolleyes::D

(Not all atheists are libs or leftist, either. )
NO!
Lefties don't like to kill babies. But lefties also consider the mother.
Pro-choice means just that, the mother (after discussion with doctors and others) has a choice.

Do you believe in free contraception and health care for women, family planning, free condoms for men?
Then, do you agree with social care for unwanted children?
Because these sorts of things need to be in place if you are forcing mothers to give birth
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
1. How did "Opposing death penalty" get renamed as "Pro life"? Is not that very similar to an apologetic approach in a seminary?
2. On what basis did you make the conclusion that opposing death penalty is a good or great thing in order to be so positive about it? As an atheist.
1. Same way as anti-abortion got named pro-life
2. In the UK we are more civilised and abolished state approved murder in the 1960s. Since then, there have been many cases where innocent people who would have been hanged have been pardoned when more evidence came to light. Notably the IRA cases where the police framed people.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
1. Same way as anti-abortion got named pro-life

So why is anti-abortion called pro-life? And is that the exact answer you would give for anti death sentence as well?

2. In the UK we are more civilised and abolished state approved murder in the 1960s. Since then, there have been many cases where innocent people who would have been hanged have been pardoned when more evidence came to light. Notably the IRA cases where the police framed people.

Thats just a faith statement like a hyper believer. Let me cut and paste the question again.

On what basis did you make the conclusion that opposing death penalty is a good or great thing in order to be so positive about it? As an atheist.

Just saying "more civilised" is a non-answer. Its a faith statement. Rather, prove it with empiricism because you are. Hope you understand that question.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
So why is anti-abortion called pro-life? And is that the exact answer you would give for anti death sentence as well?
Yes


just a faith statement like a hyper believer. Let me cut and paste the question again.

On what basis did you make the conclusion that opposing death penalty is a good or great thing in order to be so positive about it? As an atheist.

Just saying "more civilised" is a non-answer. Its a faith statement. Rather, prove it with empiricism because you are. Hope you understand that question.
I oppose the death penalty because as an atheist I believe and value human life.
I also believe that police are corrupt in many cases and under great pressure to make convictions and therefore often get it wrong. They hide evidence and the court system fails the bewildered defendant.
Here is a list of miscarriages of justice in the US (I assume you do live there, if not I can provide a similar list for wherever you do live)
List of wrongful convictions in the United States - Wikipedia
 

firedragon

Veteran Member

So what is the reason?

I oppose the death penalty because as an atheist I believe and value human life.
I also believe that police are corrupt in many cases and under great pressure to make convictions and therefore often get it wrong. They hide evidence and the court system fails the bewildered defendant.
Here is a list of miscarriages of justice in the US (I assume you do live there, if not I can provide a similar list for wherever you do live)
List of wrongful convictions in the United States - Wikipedia

Police corruption lives everywhere. So in this so called "more civilised UK" you will still corruption and will have wrong convictions even if you kill them or make them live in a prison for a number of decades.

Not a good enough explanation. Let me ask the question again.

On what basis did you make the conclusion that opposing death penalty is a good or great thing in order to be so positive about it? As an atheist.

Just saying "US police is corrupt" is a non-answer. Prove it with empiricism because you are. Hope you understand that question.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
On the other hand, to recognize that a fetus in the womb is a human life is inconvenient to their commitment to sexual liberation.
Hmm... Nope.

I am perfectly happy to concede that a foetus is a human life, and that an abortion entails a conscious decision to end that life, and would still argue that the legality of medical abortion is more morally justified than the alternative.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
So why is anti-abortion called pro-life?
Because the anti-abortionists hired public relations specialists (a.k.a. Spin Doctors). They decided that it is more popular to be for something instead of against. And that "for" should be an already established positive value. So "pro life" was born.
The pro legal abortionists countered with "pro choice".
Naming anti corporal punishment "pro life" is then just an "f u" to those "pro life"ers who are entire hypocrites. (And not few of them are.)
The whole debate is a word (and therefore emotions) game. Pro lifers also insist on calling foetuses "children" or "babies". (Sometimes countered by "clump of cells" by pro choicers.)
To get the emotions out of that debate, the interlocutors would first have to agree on a common dictionary.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It's a common pro-choice argument that you see quite often. To oppose abortion (or even fail to grant it anything less than full unquestioning support) is misogyny.
... which is true. It is misogyny. It's denying the pregnant person rights we even grant to a corpse.

The sincere belief that a viable fetus has moral value is just a cover for what is really a desire to punish sexually liberated women. Or so the narrative goes.
Merely arguing that a fetus has "moral value" doesn't justify an anti-choice position.

We acknowledge the "moral value" of an actual child, but if the father of that child refuses the use of his body, tissues, fluids, etc. to save his child's life, we honour and respect that choice.

... but the way we see that the anti-choice movement is about punishment is in what they do and don't support: on the whole, it doesn't care about measures that would prevent abortions unless they have an element of punishment, harm, shame, etc. for the pregnant person. This says to me that it's the punishment that's the point, not saving fetuses.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Yes, US is strange and backwards

Reminds me of a funny picture of a sign that was spotted at a coffeeshop in london the other day:

upload_2021-6-17_13-52-59.png
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Because the anti-abortionists hired public relations specialists (a.k.a. Spin Doctors). They decided that it is more popular to be for something instead of against. And that "for" should be an already established positive value. So "pro life" was born.
The pro legal abortionists countered with "pro choice".
Naming anti corporal punishment "pro life" is then just an "f u" to those "pro life"ers who are entire hypocrites. (And not few of them are.)
The whole debate is a word (and therefore emotions) game. Pro lifers also insist on calling foetuses "children" or "babies". (Sometimes countered by "clump of cells" by pro choicers.)
To get the emotions out of that debate, the interlocutors would first have to agree on a common dictionary.

Thanks a lot for that response. Finally a direct response, and an educative one. I am not very well versed in the movements in question, yet if I am to make an assumption, these phrases are brands. I think you have outlined it better.

The thesis was, pro-life being referred to anti-abortionists and the anti-capital punishment activists or thinkers is the same. And the thesis also included that "UK is civilised". @Altfish

But in the UK, abortion is legal. Not too sure unto how many weeks. 20?? But still, it is legal. Thus does that make UK "uncivilised"?

Its a strange dichotomy.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Some will disagree but Pope Francis has spoken about what being "pro life" means.

Yes, he refers to a "seamless garment," one which does not separate life issues but rather seeks to show their essential unity, a consistent ethic of life. But the US bishops are seriously considering denying the Eucharist to President Biden!
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Since you said the calling name "Pro Life" is the same as anti abortionists, have you a research that shows Atheists to be more "pro life" when it comes to abortion as well in comparison to Christians?
I do believe that I was the one that first pointed out that effectively atheists tend to be more "pro-life" even when abortions are considered. Would you doubt me if I claimed that atheists were more likely to be Democratic than Republican in the U.S. than Republican? And that Democrats are much more likely to support Planned Parenthood than Republicans? The latter should be a given at least. Since the goal of anti-abortionists should be lowering the number of abortions then Atheists would qualify as more "Pro-life" since they support Planned Parenthood and the presence of a Planned Parenthood office in an area can be shown to lower the number of abortions since they provide a full range of health care. They are not just abortion mills. I probably can support all of these claims, though to be honest I have never checked out the political leanings of atheists.
 
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