ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
It sure is a good thing we believe that's wrong too, then.
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Atheists are more pro-life than Christians
- Thread starter Altfish
- Start date
You don't know what happened to the moneychangers in the temple? They were going about their lawful business and this dude with a whip came in, created chaos, assaulted them, overthrew their worktables, drove them out. You could argue it was vengeance for an imagined grievance, or you could think of it as activist thuggery.
74x12
Well-Known Member
I think that's subjective. If you mean progressive countries then you're right but "advanced" is a matter of opinion.
74x12
Well-Known Member
I agree with you for the most part and have posted about it before and this is why I oppose the death penalty until we can come up with a better system. However, in theory I agree with the death penalty.
All I'm saying here is that I find it sad that the best example of "pro-life" atheists can find for themselves is not wanting killers to die.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
That is not the "best" it is just one of them. You believe that a fetus counts as a human being. Others do not.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
The crime in the bible about gods law of stone broken was said in a human review communal law.
Human law.
Said science was considered to be a criminal who had murdered the human life spirit so that babies were aborted unnaturally. Could no longer be born by mutation firstborn DNA gone.
That the criminal act against God caused homosexual behaviours where the previous theme natural human sex parents changed to man lying with man. Woman with woman.
Had to state why it had become criminal against natural laws as science irradiated the brain chemistry and science caused depravity behaviours.
.murderers...theives etc as it's status.
Against O God earths natural life support.
In human law the criminal was then dealt with for non behaviour control. Locked away. They did the same to scientists.
You know they did.
The changed human therefore was in fact it's science victim. Yet endangering life of family is not acceptable.
Why the document said as all children babies are innocent first that they were forgiven. Yet bad behaviour meant locking away
The science murder of the human consciousness the criminal. The human their victim. Is why it was taught.
Today child molestation is now on the new criminal list.
So the murder in the bible already occurred as a God act.
Why humans defined criminals is not by sex it is by harm of taking away.
Sex is mutual.
Child sex not mutual.
Understand why you are wrong to mix human law review with gods laws.
As science changed natural law as science.
Human law.
Said science was considered to be a criminal who had murdered the human life spirit so that babies were aborted unnaturally. Could no longer be born by mutation firstborn DNA gone.
That the criminal act against God caused homosexual behaviours where the previous theme natural human sex parents changed to man lying with man. Woman with woman.
Had to state why it had become criminal against natural laws as science irradiated the brain chemistry and science caused depravity behaviours.
.murderers...theives etc as it's status.
Against O God earths natural life support.
In human law the criminal was then dealt with for non behaviour control. Locked away. They did the same to scientists.
You know they did.
The changed human therefore was in fact it's science victim. Yet endangering life of family is not acceptable.
Why the document said as all children babies are innocent first that they were forgiven. Yet bad behaviour meant locking away
The science murder of the human consciousness the criminal. The human their victim. Is why it was taught.
Today child molestation is now on the new criminal list.
So the murder in the bible already occurred as a God act.
Why humans defined criminals is not by sex it is by harm of taking away.
Sex is mutual.
Child sex not mutual.
Understand why you are wrong to mix human law review with gods laws.
As science changed natural law as science.
Altfish
Veteran Member
I am NOT pro-abortion. Please understand that.
BUT I do not want to deny that right, yes, possibly some women are coerced into abortions . Therefore we need better and easier accessed counselling available for free. ie more Planned Parenthood, more assistance for single mums.
Abortion is the last option, but do not deny the mother that by making it illegal.
Altfish
Veteran Member
I do remember the Bible story.
But did JC kill those people, no. He just showed his objection to them. (btw How do GOP voters square that circle?)
Altfish
Veteran Member
Advanced countries have healthcare for all and no state murder,
Heyo
Veteran Member
I was waiting for an answer from @BilliardsBall who tried to deflect a question with a tu quoque. But since you all jumped in, I feel the need to go into more detail.
I think we can all agree that abortion as well as capital punishment is ending the life of a human being (note the choice of words).
Viewed solely from this angle, being for one and not the other is hypocritical.
Being such a hypocrite myself, I have to have good reasons for the discrepancy. I think my reasons are at least not as bad as those from the other side of the hypocrisy.
It boils down to abortion being a conflict of two rights and a necessary evil inflicted by circumstances. There is no such conflict in case of capital punishment. In fact, it is simply denying a human right.
What are your excuses for being hypocrites?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Well where is the fun in that?
Okay, on a more serious note it is easy to find support for the claim that Planned Parenthood reduces abortion rates. No matter what we do there will be some abortions. So if someone was truly pro-life should they support anything that lowers the number of abortions? Such as opening more Planned Parenthood offices. Planned Parenthood provides birth control to those that need help the most and are most likely to get abortions if they get pregnant. They help the poor that slip through the cracks of our fantastic
medical system. People that do not get pregnant when they cannot afford to get pregnant do not have abortions. I know, it is a bit of a tautology. But one of my checks to see if someone is truly pro-life, and that includes in the anti-abortion sense, is to ask them if they support Planned Parenthood. If they don't then they are being more than a little hypocritical.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
I basically agree with your position.
When looked at as broadly as possible, making abortions illegal essentially means that you believe it is morally acceptable for the state to force a woman to carry a child and give birth to them against their will, and this constitutes a massive and unavoidable contravention of bodily autonomy.
Meanwhile, the implication of capital punishment is that the State has the right to determine if someone has the right to life, even if that individual is currently detained at the will of the state and poses no further direct threat to others. There are also purely utilitarian reasons I object to it, seeing as it is - overall - more costly and less effective than the alternatives.
There is a distinction that I think is important here that DOES in fact draw a line of equivalence between capital punishment and abortion, and that is threat to wellbeing ans bodily autonomy. While I believe capital punishment is wrong, I do believe it is justifiable to end a life in order to protect people from a direct threat of harm and/or a contravention of another's right to bodily autonomy. Of course, there are a lot of caveats and nuance to this position, but I feel I would be going further and further off topic if I delved too deeply.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
I bet more athiests favor abortion.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Then none of them are advanced.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Because you think the mark of an advanced society is crippling medical debt and state-sanctioned murder of citizens?
74x12
Well-Known Member
Did I say that? Because they all murder.
I'll bet you're right, but so is Altfish. I believe they they look on the killing of people by the 'justice' system and military less favorably, too.
Wild generalization: Atheists are more compassionate and moral than the typical religious.
As an atheist, I allow abortion, but not the abortion of people, ie: those with the self-awareness and self-interest that confer a claim to moral consideration.
A first trimester, human fœtus is human, but not yet a person. It does not yet have a claim to moral consideration.
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ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
You said having free healthcare and capital punishment makes a country "not advanced".
Point taken about the murder, though.
Altfish
Veteran Member
When will anti-abortionists realise that pro-choice people are NOT in favour of abortion. It is an outcome that should be avoided BUT IT SHOULD NOT BE MADE ILLEGAL.
Altfish
Veteran Member
You prefer unwell people and starving children?