• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Atheists are not nearly as rationional as some think.

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Not a historical standard which can be applied consistently.

Absolutely no evidence is absolutely no evidence to confirm the Biblical account in Genesis. There are standards of academic historical evidence if wish I can cite them.

The topic is denial of history. Fact being, they were wrong about Jesus myth. So why are they right about Moses myth?

You are entitled to opinion, but you need far more than opinion to falsify the early witnesses attesting to the physical existence of Moses. Strawman. At issue here was the denial of the historicity of Jesus and the fact they were shown to be wrong.

Misuse of strawman fallacy

The majority of the academic historians have never changed their view one way or another, There has always been evidence for the existence of Jesus as a person. There has never been any evidence of the historicity of Genesis, nor Exodus, nor the the Noah flood, nor the existence of Moses. There has not been any change in the dominant academic historical view. There will always be a minority of historians that will reject the existence of Jesus, and that will likely not change.

Even though by far most historians consider the person Jesus existed there are problems with the Biblical claims. There is absolutely no record of the existence of JEsus during his life time. All the references you provided were references fifty or more years after Jesus dies.

They don't have to be. Again not a standard which can be applied consistently in investigation. If applied it wipes out all of ancient history. Common first-century practice was scribes who recorded.
Not a standard in history and certainly not a standard for the 1st century. i could go into the details but your comprehension is off so i won't invest a lot of time.

What you said here is worthless whether you go into details or not. There are historical academic standards and I can cite you references if you like regardless of whether it is the 1st century AD, or yesterday.
 
Last edited:
Anyone making comments like that got their science education from the likes of AIG, not from a science class in high school.

Actually I'm somewhat surprised that AIG still supports this nonsense. I thought that some years ago they accepted the fact that the earth was not a closed system. Oh, well.

Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics: Effectively Communicating to Non-technicians
Isaac Asimov (1984) characterized the fallacy of the creationist understanding of entropy: “In kindergarten terms, the second law of thermodynamics says that all spontaneous change is in the direction of increasing disorder—that is, in a ‘downhill’ direction. There can be no spontaneous buildup of the complex from the simple, therefore, because that would be moving ‘uphill’.” Asimov reasons, “An argument based on kindergarten terms is only suitable for kindergartens.”​
Ecco, are you saying that the Second Law of Thermodynamics is wrong? The fact that it is a law means that it happens every time, there is no exception, ever. Simply put, things move from order to chaos, not from chaos to order. How can you claim to understand this LAW and still believe in evolution?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Ecco, are you saying that the Second Law of Thermodynamics is wrong? The fact that it is a law means that it happens every time, there is no exception, ever. Simply put, things move from order to chaos, not from chaos to order. How can you claim to understand this LAW and still believe in evolution?

The second Law of Thermodynamics applies only to a closed system. The relatively closed system in this case is our solar system. Yes, according to the Law entropy increases in the closed system, our solar system in billions of years in the future will likely be a victim of entropy.

In the meantime the origins of life (abiogenesis), the evolution of life and the history of life itself has no problem with energy sources to avoid the problem of entropy. The energy sources are the internal heat of the earth and the sun. Without the energy from the sun and the eternal heat of the earth no life could exist.

By the way the best bet for abiogensis ia around the heat vents of the mid ocean ridges where there is abundant energy for the beginnings of life. The simplist primitive fossils of the earliest life are found in rocks formed around ocean sea vents.
 
A law is a law. Gravity is a law because it always works without exception. You jump up, you will also come back down. The Second Law of Thermodynamics is a law; there are no exceptions. Why do you try to confuse and misdirect by adding irrelevant arguments to what is actually very simple? The Second LAW of Thermodynamics completely refutes the THEORY of evolution. The only other possibility is that there is a God and that He created us, and everything else in the universe. If God exists, and He created everything, 'everything' would also include all the laws and rules of Science and Mathematics. So these laws and rules would never contradict His own existence. On the contrary, they would prove His existence. The Second LAW of Thermodynamics annihilates the THEORY of evolution. The only other option is that God exists.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
A law is a law. Gravity is a law because it always works without exception. You jump up, you will also come back down. The Second Law of Thermodynamics is a law; there are no exceptions. Why do you try to confuse and misdirect by adding irrelevant arguments to what is actually very simple? The Second LAW of Thermodynamics completely refutes the THEORY of evolution. The only other possibility is that there is a God and that He created us, and everything else in the universe. If God exists, and He created everything, 'everything' would also include all the laws and rules of Science and Mathematics. So these laws and rules would never contradict His own existence. On the contrary, they would prove His existence. The Second LAW of Thermodynamics annihilates the THEORY of evolution. The only other option is that God exists.

Your ignorance and misrepresentation of basic science and physics is appalling.

Again, respond to this because it is basic fundamental science. . .

The second Law of Thermodynamics applies only to a closed system. The relatively closed system in this case is our solar system. Yes, according to the Law entropy increases in the closed system, our solar system in billions of years in the future will likely be a victim of entropy.

In the meantime the origins of life (abiogenesis), the evolution of life and the history of life itself has no problem with energy sources to avoid the problem of entropy. The energy sources are the internal heat of the earth and the sun. Without the energy from the sun and the eternal heat of the earth no life could exist.

By the way the best bet for abiogensis ia around the heat vents of the mid ocean ridges where there is abundant energy for the beginnings of life. The simplist primitive fossils of the earliest life are found in rocks formed around ocean sea vents.

This is the science of physics. This reference in Britannica goes into detail how the secon law applies to life on earth.

Second law of thermodynamics

second law of thermodynamics
  1. the branch of physical science that deals with the relations between heat and other forms of energy (such as mechanical, electrical, or chemical energy), and, by extension, of the relationships between all forms of energy.

Please respond with citing an alternate explanation for the 2nd Law that is different from what I presented.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
The fact that it is a law means that it happens every time, there is no exception, ever.
Then how does chemistry work? Clearly a water molecule is more ordered than two free hydrogen atoms and one free oxygen atom, all disassociated from each other, right?

But if your assertion is true, how then do water molecules form? How does any molecule form? Do you believe God personally assembles every molecule in the universe?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ecco, are you saying that the Second Law of Thermodynamics is wrong? The fact that it is a law means that it happens every time, there is no exception, ever. Simply put, things move from order to chaos, not from chaos to order. How can you claim to understand this LAW and still believe in evolution?
you simply do not understand the Second Law of Thermodynamics. It in no way says that evolution is impossible. That you do not understand this law is that by your understanding life itself is impossible, and we know that is not the case.

Here is a helpful hint. Don't get your science from creationist sources. They tend to get almost everything wrong.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Things fall apart in nature, they do not get better and better due to mutations and blind unguided processes.
Yet we see populations evolve and improve their fitness all the time. We both exploit (domestication) and fight (antibiotic resistance) the process.

So your assertion is directly contradicted by observed reality.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Yet we see populations evolve and improve their fitness all the time. We both exploit (domestication) and fight (antibiotic resistance) the process.

So your assertion is directly contradicted by observed reality.
Forget about evolution. Such a simplistic and incorrect interpretation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that it is impossible for us to have started as a single cell and developed into you and me. Such an interpretation would mean life was impossible since we start as a single cell and grow into something much more complex.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Ecco, are you saying that the Second Law of Thermodynamics is wrong? The fact that it is a law means that it happens every time, there is no exception, ever. Simply put, things move from order to chaos, not from chaos to order. How can you claim to understand this LAW and still believe in evolution?

No. The Second Law of Thermodynamics is correct. But it doesn't say what some seem to think it says. In particular, there is no violation of the second law in evolution.

And, yes, it is quite possible for things to move from a less ordered state to a more ordered state and sill not be in violation of the second law. Like I said above, whenever water freezes, it goes from less order (liquid) to more order (solid crystal). And that process happens without violating the second law in any way. In a very similar fashion, it is quite possible for species to gain structure and still not be in violation of the second law. if you *truly* understood the second law, you would understand how and why.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
A law is a law. Gravity is a law because it always works without exception. You jump up, you will also come back down. The Second Law of Thermodynamics is a law; there are no exceptions. Why do you try to confuse and misdirect by adding irrelevant arguments to what is actually very simple? The Second LAW of Thermodynamics completely refutes the THEORY of evolution. The only other possibility is that there is a God and that He created us, and everything else in the universe. If God exists, and He created everything, 'everything' would also include all the laws and rules of Science and Mathematics. So these laws and rules would never contradict His own existence. On the contrary, they would prove His existence. The Second LAW of Thermodynamics annihilates the THEORY of evolution. The only other option is that God exists.


In no way is that correct. The second law simply doesn't say what you seem to think it says. It is a physical law, that much is true. But it *also* is consistent with evolution: at no step in evolution is there a violation of the second law.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Your ignorance and misrepresentation of basic science and physics is appalling.

Again, respond to this because it is basic fundamental science. . .

The second Law of Thermodynamics applies only to a closed system. The relatively closed system in this case is our solar system. Yes, according to the Law entropy increases in the closed system, our solar system in billions of years in the future will likely be a victim of entropy.

In the meantime the origins of life (abiogenesis), the evolution of life and the history of life itself has no problem with energy sources to avoid the problem of entropy. The energy sources are the internal heat of the earth and the sun. Without the energy from the sun and the eternal heat of the earth no life could exist.

By the way the best bet for abiogensis ia around the heat vents of the mid ocean ridges where there is abundant energy for the beginnings of life. The simplist primitive fossils of the earliest life are found in rocks formed around ocean sea vents.

This is the science of physics. This reference in Britannica goes into detail how the secon law applies to life on earth.

Second law of thermodynamics

second law of thermodynamics
  1. the branch of physical science that deals with the relations between heat and other forms of energy (such as mechanical, electrical, or chemical energy), and, by extension, of the relationships between all forms of energy.

Please respond with citing an alternate explanation for the 2nd Law that is different from what I presented.


Just a quibble: there are good formulations of the 2LOT that hold in systems that are not closed. For example, saying that the Gibb's free energy of a system always decreases is a perfectly valid way of stating the second law for systems that are not closed. of course, being thermodynamics, you have to figure in the heat flow into and out of the system as well as the entropy.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Just a quibble: there are good formulations of the 2LOT that hold in systems that are not closed. For example, saying that the Gibb's free energy of a system always decreases is a perfectly valid way of stating the second law for systems that are not closed. of course, being thermodynamics, you have to figure in the heat flow into and out of the system as well as the entropy.

Your correct for a quibble, and a bit of a deep discussion, but nonetheless that is not the issue dealing with the AIG fundamentalist objections to abiogenesis and the science of evolution based the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. It is simple resolution that in the case of the solar system as close to a closed system to understand the energy relationships of abiogenesis, evolution, and the history of life on earth in general. In this case the source of energy is the sun and the internal heat of the earth,
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Well here are the facts. This is what you wrote. ''Not a single thing in Genesis is history.''

Not one thing so that has been falsified since Genesis records the existence of Egypt so your statement is false. I may get back later.
Genesis (along with other books of Torah, like Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus and Deuteronomy) was most likely composed in parts, beginning with the 2nd half of 7th century BCE, eg during the reign of Josiah (649 - 609 BCE), but Genesis was completed until the time of the Second Temple construction (was completed until 519 BCE).

As I have I already told you, the Silver Scrolls from Ketef Hinnom tomb, along with other artefacts found alongside with the badly damaged scrolls, were dated to any time just before the fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the First Temple (587/586 BCE); so late 7th century or early 6th century BCE.

The Silver Scrolls is the oldest text discovered, and could be as early as last part of Josiah’s reign, who died in 609 BCE. And these scrolls were badly damaged and fragmented, that the only surviving and readable passage come from Numbers 6, which is the Priestly Blessings section.

There are no writings of the Bible existing earlier than the time of Josiah.

So Moses couldn’t have written Genesis or other parts of the Torah.
  • There are no literary evidences that the Torah (including Genesis) were written by one person (Moses) during the Late Bronze Age (1600 - 1100 BCE).
  • No literary evidences that any text from the Bronze Age had survived to the Iron Age (1100 - 50 BCE).
And there are no historical and archaeological evidences that Genesis narrative concerning the existence of Adam to Noah to that of Abraham to Jacob.

And no historical evidences that even Moses and Joshua existed.
  • Not the mass liberation from Egypt,
  • not the 40 years wandering in the wildernesses,
  • and not the Israelite invasion of Canaan.
You were saying that Genesis is historically true, because Egypt is mentioned for the 1st time in Genesis 10, after the Flood, with Egypt or Mizraim (10: 6, 13) being the son of Ham?

But Genesis wasn’t first composed in the Bronze Age, but in the late 7th or early 6th century BCE.

So Genesis was actually recording events when Egypt have been around since the predynastic period (c 3600 - c 3100 BCE), when Egypt was two kingdoms instead of one.

If the Old Testament were all true, then it is possible to dated certain events. So working backward, you get the time line from the Old Testament:
  1. According to 1 Kings 6:1, when Solomon began building his temple in the “4th year” of his reign, which mean 967 or 966 BCE, and that Moses liberating the Israelites from slavery “490 years” earlier, hence the calculation would set Moses’ exodus starting in 1457 BCE. (Calculation: 967+490 = 1457 BCE.)
  2. Exodus 12:40-41 stated that the Israelites were in Egypt for “430 years”, hence 1887 BCE. But that’s not possible, because it would mean that Jochebed, daughter of Levi and mother of Moses, would be somewhere between 349 (if she was born when Levi arrived in Egypt) and 261 (if she was born before Levi died in Egypt at age 137), when she gave birth to Moses. If you read the Septuagint, Exodus 12:40-41 stated that Moses’ ancestors, including Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, lived in the lands of both “Egypt and Canaan”, not just Egypt. If you remember Abraham lived in Egypt for a time when Canaan was in a drought and famine, before Moses received the covenant in Genesis 15. So most scholars believed that 430 years most likely dated to Abraham receiving the covenant. This would mean Jacob and his family arrived in Egypt 215 years before Moses was born. But the details of Levi’s life and his daughter were never given in Genesis and Exodus, so we don’t know how old Jochebed was when she gave birth to Moses. Last month, The Anointed in the “I will harden the Pharaohs heart”, post 69, gave me my clues in the apocryphal source Testament of Levi, that Levi was 48 when he arrived in Egypt and 64 when Jochebed was born. That would mean Jochebed would be 119 years old when Moses was born.
  3. Determining when 430 years occurred in Genesis is important, so it make working out when the Flood occurred possible to calculate. So if 430 years from Moses freeing the slaves and leaving Egypt occurred in Genesis 15, then Abraham (still called Abram then) receiving the covenant, then he would be age 85, in 1887 BCE (source Exodus 12:40-41, hence calculation, 1447+430 = 1887 BCE). And if Abraham was 85 in Genesis 15 covenant, then he would be born 1997 BCE (hence calculation 1887+85 = 1972 BCE).
  4. And according to the calculations in Genesis 11, in the genealogy between Noah’s Flood (Noah’s Age at 600) to Abraham being born (Genesis 11:26), is 292 years. What this mean is that the Flood “supposedly” occurred in 2264 BCE, if all my calculations are correct (1972+292 = 2264 BCE).
The reasons why I did all the calculations, is to show that none of these dates matched with any known and archaeological and historical dates of Egypt, and that If Egypt only existed after the Flood.

2264 BCE would put the Flood in the reign of Pepi II (reign 2278 - 2184 BCE), the 5th king of the 6th dynasty (2345 - 2181 BCE), Old Kingdom.

Pepi II has a small pyramid at Saqqara. And his Pyramid is neither largest, nor the oldest.

The greatest pyramid is that of Khufu (2589 - 2566 BCE), the 2nd king of the 4th dynasty (2613 - c 2494 BCE), Old Kingdom. It was built in Giza.

The first and oldest pyramid was built at Saqqara, in the reign of Djoser (c 2686 - c c 2667 BCE), 3rd dynasty (c 2686 - c 2613 BCE).

Now how can all these date-able pyramids exist in Egypt, if they all occurred before the Flood, and before Mizraim/Egypt was born to Ham?

And Egyptian culture go all the way back in times, when Egypt was divided into 2 kingdoms, from c 3600 to 3100 BCE.

Egypt is far older than the claim of Genesis 10.

Genesis 10, not only got Egypt wrong. It is also wrong about Erech or Uruk. According to Genesis 10, Nimrod, the grandson of Ham, found many cities in Babylonia, then in Assyria, and one of them is Uruk or Erech.

But Uruk’s earliest settlement have been dated as far back 5000 BCE, but it was thriving and largest city in the ancient world, between 4000 and 3100 BCE (known as the Uruk period), and reached its zenith, from 3500 to 3100 BCE, when large temple building programme, predated the Sumerian civilisation.

The other problems in the Genesis and in the Exodus, is that they never mentioned any of the Egyptian rulers by names, eg when Abraham was in Egypt, or Jacob, nor the names of the rulers, when Moses was born or when Moses freed the slaves. So how do you expect to the Old Testament to have history, when it rulers of foreign kingdoms remained nameless?

In 2 Kings, some of the Assyrian kings were named. With these names, we can search Assyrian records of any king of Judah or of Israel, to verify if anything written in 2 Kings have any reliability.

That certainly not the cases with Genesis or with the Exodus.

And in Exodus 1, it stated that Egyptian king forgot the debt they owed to Joseph during the 7-day famine, but the king is not named. But if the “490 years” in 1 Kings 6:1, is supposedly dated to 1457 BCE, then Moses being born 80 years earlier, then Moses’ birth would be dated to 1537 BCE (calculation, 1457+80 = 1537 BCE).

The problem with dating Moses’ birth to 1537 BCE, would put the timeline to the reign of Ahmose I (1549 - 1524 BCE), the 1st king of the 18th dynasty (1549 - 1292 BCE), New Kingdom.

And Exodus 1 stated that the king had the Israelite slaves building the cities, Pithom and Rameses (Pi-Ramesses, or “House of Rameses”). The problem is that Egyptian records showed that the Pi-Ramesses was built during the reign of Ramesses II (1279 - 1213 BCE), the 3rd king of 19th dynasty (1292 - 1189 BCE).

So how Exodus’ Rameses be built in 1537 BCE, when the city didn’t exist until Ramesses II’s Pi-Ramesses, 13th century later?

Although, Pi-Ramesses and Rameses have never been found, we know that Ramesses II was the greatest ruler of the 19th dynasty, and was involved in many large building programs (palaces, temples, tombs), in different cities throughout Egypt, which included Thebes and Abydos.

If your claim that Genesis in regarding to Egypt be historically true, then Genesis should match with historical and archaeological evidences in Egypt, but it doesn’t.

So the Genesis and Exodus are wrong, and so are you.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Anyone making comments like that got their science education from the likes of AIG, not from a science class in high school.

Actually I'm somewhat surprised that AIG still supports this nonsense. I thought that some years ago they accepted the fact that the earth was not a closed system. Oh, well.

Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics: Effectively Communicating to Non-technicians
Isaac Asimov (1984) characterized the fallacy of the creationist understanding of entropy: “In kindergarten terms, the second law of thermodynamics says that all spontaneous change is in the direction of increasing disorder—that is, in a ‘downhill’ direction. There can be no spontaneous buildup of the complex from the simple, therefore, because that would be moving ‘uphill’.” Asimov reasons, “An argument based on kindergarten terms is only suitable for kindergartens.”

Ecco, are you saying that the Second Law of Thermodynamics is wrong?

It should be quite clear to anyone who can read at a sixth grade level that I said the opposite.

Simply put, things move from order to chaos, not from chaos to order. How can you claim to understand this LAW and still believe in evolution?
Easy, I understand the law. Obviously, you don't.

Please refer back to my quotes from Asimov.

Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics: Effectively Communicating to Non-technicians
Isaac Asimov (1984) characterized the fallacy of the creationist understanding of entropy: “In kindergarten terms, the second law of thermodynamics says that all spontaneous change is in the direction of increasing disorder—that is, in a ‘downhill’ direction. There can be no spontaneous buildup of the complex from the simple, therefore, because that would be moving ‘uphill’.” Asimov reasons, “An argument based on kindergarten terms is only suitable for kindergartens.”​
 
Last edited:

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
It should be quite clear to anyone who can read at a sixth grade level that I said the opposite.


Easy, I understand the law. Obviously, you don't.

Please refer back to my quotes from Asimov.

Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics: Effectively Communicating to Non-technicians
Isaac Asimov (1984) characterized the fallacy of the creationist understanding of entropy: “In kindergarten terms, the second law of thermodynamics says that all spontaneous change is in the direction of increasing disorder—that is, in a ‘downhill’ direction. There can be no spontaneous buildup of the complex from the simple, therefore, because that would be moving ‘uphill’.” Asimov reasons, “An argument based on kindergarten terms is only suitable for kindergartens.”​

Asomov's quote was good, but incomplete. The key is 'spontaneous change,' which if the system has energy sources than change can be increasing order.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Not a historical standard since they go with what they have. Originals wear out with time. If all that was a historical standard then all ancient history would be wiped out.

Yes, originals can be lost forever, but if the individual works, particularly that of the Torah, then it should have survived in some forms or others.

Egyptians write, draw or paint what important on the walls of their homes, palace, temples, tombs, etc, or on stone stelae and on coffins, not always on papyri.

Outside, of Egypt, it is the same, but the most popular materials used to write on, were clay tablets, from Bronze Age Elamites, Sumerians, Babylonians, Ugarit, Canaanites, Hurrians and Hittites, to Iron Age Babylonians, Assyrians, Syrians, etc.

Clay tablets from Babylonia have been found outside of Babylonia, which tell us how popular the Babylonian myths were, particularly the Epic of Gilgamesh, which include in Bronze Age Megiddo.

Earlier writings of paleo-Hebrew alphabets have been found inscribed on stones, like the Zayit Stone and Gezer Calendar, which make no reference to any biblical passage.

All of the above examples should not be lost on late Bronze Age and Iron Age Hebrew speaking people, since Canaan, and then kingdoms of Israel and Judah were on trade routes, between east and west, or between north and south.

While it is true, that originals can get lost or damaged, but if the Torah are old as you believed, then something would have survived before King Josiah’s time (late 7th century BCE).

But what do we find?

Absolutely nothing.

Second, there are no evidences that showed that Moses or Joshua lived. Books attributed to them are merely attributes, not actual authorship.

Such attributes come from traditions, not from the authors themselves.

Take the gospels for examples, they were originally written anonymously in the 1st century CE, at least one or two generations later. The names that were attributed to the gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were invented or given (hence “attributed”) in the early 2nd century by early church fathers.

Christian traditions were clearly invented stories, regarding to authorship of the gospels.

One of them included that each gospels were written in different audience or different readers, for examples, the gospel of Matthew were written for Hebrew readers, Mark gospel in Latin, for the Romans, that of Luke and John in Greek.

They were all written in Greek, no translations to different languages. The whole concepts of Hebrew and Latin originals are merely myths from traditions.

Just as traditions made up stories about the gospels’ authorship, so were traditions that invented that Moses wrote all five books of the Torah.
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
DIMMESDALE, I don't know what happened to your last response, but I'll respond to what I remember reading.

Since the video about Mother Teresa, was not a book, I thought you were referring to the Bible. Were there any truths mentioned in this video that you disagree with? Do you think that any of the millions of dollars she received in donations and sponsorships, from dictators, Atheist governments, gangsters and politicians, went into addressing the real problems of poverty, or acquiring proper medical attention for the sick and dying? However, her popularity WAS the inspiration needed for many other secular and religious missionary and charity organizations, to directly attack the problem of poverty and sickness in Calcutta. That is, they set up schools to educate the poor, provided clean water and food, constructed new orphanages for the abandoned children, and provided more direct medical assistance for the sick and the dying. Not simply making the sick and dying more comfortable, and just calling it "God's Will" when they died. She was truly the Patron Saint for the Dying.

As I stated before, no secular or non-religious war was EVER committed by Governments only because of their peoples disbelief in a God. The motives of both Secular, Religious, or other ideologies, have always been about their control and power over the masses. And, how to best maintain that control and power. Either tell the masses what they want to hear, or instil a real or imaginary fear in them, to keep them docile, obedient and mentally suggestive. The advertising Industry has been doing this for ages. Those that refuse to accept these irrational and counterintuitive religious views, are marginalized, persecuted, demonized, or ostracised. “With or without religion, you will have good people doing good things, and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” No Atheist could rationalize the killing of women(and men) because they were possessed with demonic powers. Or try to justify the killing of infidels, pagans, or unbelievers. Or, would support any religious rationale behind the commision of honor crimes. Certainly, no Atheist could begin to justify female genital mutilation, simply because God had commanded it(Genesis). No Atheist would be satisfied with easy answers to supernatural and metaphysical questions, or that we are all somehow evil. No Atheist would ever believe through faith alone, that we will live forever. Especially, if all we have to do is humble ourselves, and blindly accept any of the thousands of religions on the planet. Atheists can't be taught to cling to any intangibles abstraction, or believe that any objects, people, ideas, or books can be sacred. Atheist only consider symbolically, that Being and Truth are in fact sacred. Although I personally believe that no one is physically responsible for their actions, I do believe that everyone is accountable for the consequences of their actions. And the rest of us should be protected from anyone's negative or harmful actions. It is also my personal believe that any rational person should run a mile, to avoid becoming a victim of the insidious nature and subtleties of Religious encroachment.
The Dangers of Religion Itself

I was never talking about a very real fear of being judged in court by a judge, and you know it. I was referring to the imaginary fear of being judged by an imaginary Deity. An imaginary Deity that can decide your level of worthiness AFTER you are dead. I did make a mistake regarding German soldiers refusing to obey orders. None were ever shot for disobeying orders, because the orders were illegal. But many officers and soldiers WERE sent to the Eastern Front, soon thereafter. Sorry I can't remember your other points.
 
Last edited:

atanu

Member
Premium Member
The second Law of Thermodynamics applies only to a closed system. The relatively closed system in this case is our solar system. Yes, according to the Law entropy increases in the closed system, our solar system in billions of years in the future will likely be a victim of entropy.

But why and how living system/s manage to reduce entropy is not explained. Consciousness-life is not explained by any mechanism. Pointing this out brings out sarcasm or anger in ontological materialists.

In the meantime the origins of life (abiogenesis), the evolution of life and the history of life itself has no problem with energy sources to avoid the problem of entropy. The energy sources are the internal heat of the earth and the sun. Without the energy from the sun and the eternal heat of the earth no life could exist.

abiogenesis is a hypothesis. Those who teach others about empiricism should themselves adhere to that.

By the way the best bet for abiogensis ia around the heat vents of the mid ocean ridges where there is abundant energy for the beginnings of life. The simplist primitive fossils of the earliest life are found in rocks formed around ocean sea vents.

What kind of fossils have been found around sea vents? How does presence of fossils prove creation of life-intelligence from organic chemical moities?
 
Top