Exactly, but the problem is that pointing out the problem is not enough, you have to show that causation “always” and ”necessarily” occurs within time
Causes happen before effects.
Read your own linked wiki article.
Not granted, but Physics doesn’t have a say on the origin of the physical world anyway
……………what you have to justify is why would the cause of the universe, be limited by the laws of the universe.
Irony. I'm not "limiting" the origins of the universe that way.
The problem is that YOU are trying to use the laws inherent of the universe, to explain the universe itself.
Causality is a phenomenon of the physics of the universe. It requires the universe as it depends on temporal conditions.
You try to invoke the physics of the universe in a context where the universe doesn't exist.
The wiki article, talks about the controversy o weather if causation “requires time” or not,
It does not.
I asked you elsewhere, what alternative do you suggest……..(you answered I don’t know)…….. the reason I asked that question, because it seems to me that all imaginable alternatives have the same problem, no matter what alternative you pick , you will always have to deal with “causality” without time..........am I wrong?
I said that I don't know. I tend to not make claims about things I don't know. That's what you do.
I can only say that it is nonsensical to invoke phenomenon that require the universe to exist to try and make statements about a context where said universe does not exist.
I don't require any "alternatives" to point that out.
--
from the wiki articlle
And I asked you who these supposed "writers" are.
My guess is some "philosophers", like that other article you linked to. People who aren't physicists.
In summary, this seems to be our point of disagreement , I argue that cause and effect are metaphysically prior to cause and effect
And what does that mean?
"prior" is a notion of time. As per GR, there is no "before" the universe. So what are you talking about?
you argue the opposite……………..
I just go with what we know as per physics.
I argue that it is nonsensical to invoke the physics of the universe and pretend they apply without said universe.
why are you so sure that you are correct in such a controversial topic?
It seems to only be controversial in your little world.
It's not controversial in physics.
That, or you are confusing "controversial" with "counter-intuitive".
I certainly agree it is counter-intuitive. But then many things in physics are. GR, quantum physics, extreme gravity,.... all those are things that create or involve conditions that our human minds, which evolved to avoid being eaten by lions - not to have intuitive affinity with the quantum world, can not properly comprehend.
Yet, it is what it is.
This is the problem I see with "philosophers" who try to "reason" about this stuff. They use their "intuition" and "common sense" to "build arguments". And then they come to conclusions like "there is a cause for the universe". The problem is that intuition & common sense is completely worthless once we deep dive into the (to us) alien world off quantum physics, extreme gravity, extreme speeds, T = 0, etc.
I like the analogy that Brian Greene once made....
Suppose I throw you a tennis ball. Even without warning. In the blink of an eye, you will know where to put your hand to catch it, when to close your hand etc. You might even be able to account for wind direction in a split second and adjust your hand position.
We can make very complex formula to calculate exactly the trajectory of that ball by knowing the force with which it is thrown, the angle, the weight of the ball, the atmospheric pressure, the gravitational field we are in, etc. But none of that is necessary for you to catch that ball. You
intuitively know where it will end up and how to catch it. This is because we have affinity with slow speeds, medium gravity, tennis balls, etc.
Yet, to catch a proton or neutrino, we need to build multi-billion dollar machinery. And even though we design and build the machines, we ourselves actually barely comprehend why it works.
So to sum up: to use "common sense" and "intuition" to try and reason yourself into answers concerning these topics.... you will most certainly end up with the wrong answer.
As
@ratiocinator has said multiple times already, your postings here also show that your mind concerning physics, is still stuck in the Newtonian world. A world where time is independent of the universe. A world where if you remove the sun from existence, the orbiting earth
instantly travels into outer space instead of only after 8 minutes. A world where the flow of time is unaffected by space, by gravity, by speeds. Enter Einstein. He showed us how wrong that is.
.................do you understand that I need more than “I am correct because I say so”
Not once has anyone here said any such thing.
