• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Atheists believe in miracles more than believers

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Odesy is just science fiction.
That's how I understand Genesis and Exodus: a magical narrative predating science. Instead of Zeus you have Yahweh. Instead of Odysseus, you get Moses. You would likely agree if you didn't simply assume that by faith the Bible is correct by faith. If you accepted the Odyssey by faith, you would be calling the Bible science fiction instead.
I do think that the usage of ‘some’, ‘some’ & ‘some’ (which accounts for the whole) implies an equal measure; hence that can be misleading.
Only to somebody making that assumption. I just illustrated to you with the bees that it doesn't. Some are queens, some are workers, and some are drones. Does that mean 1/3 each to you? If so, you'd be well-served to recognize that you've added your own understanding, and that it's not the words that are misleading you but your assumptions.
We know these 3 types of mutations are not found equally by a long shot.
OK, but you still seem to be hanging on to your private understanding of those words. Nobody said they were equal. You added that yourself. I wonder why you haven't been able to see that yet and modify your understanding. You're at risk of making all kinds of mistakes there. If you were sending out invitations to a party for 30, and somebody told you some will be on time, some will be late, and some won't show at all, would you shop for 20 and the assumption that 1/3 won't show? I hope not. Hopefully, at that point, you would understand that some

I'll leave to you to amend your definition of some from an equal part to an unspecified number, or risk making errors like the one I described.

And I appreciate your good cheer and kind thought as well.
I find many here that firmly believe in the process of evolution from beginning to the present, not really honest.
But you're wrong. Of course they're honest. They're as sincere as you are.
They may think they're honest, but their posts reveal otherwise.
Not to me.
I obviously don't know EVERYTHING about evolution -- that is, the theory of -- but that doesn't mean I don't "understand" it.
No, that alone doesn't mean you don't understand it. I don't much about the theory except what it says in the main and what evidence supports that. Just the first part is enough to say one understands it.

What tells us that you don't understand the theory is the questions you ask and your inability to learn. Look at our last interchange. I explained what point mutation was (I didn't use the word point, however), named the two mechanisms I'm aware of for that

Look at post 2480.

Me: "A bolus of mutagenic radiation impacts a DNA base and modifies the genetic code, or maybe there is a copying error, and the genome is slightly modified."
Your comment: "Just wondering what scientists say makes - causes a mutation."

With all due respect, that is a failure to understand what you read, and though you're far from alone, I see it repeatedly with you. THAT's how I know that you don't understand the theory. I'm pretty sure that you can't give a single sentence summary of the theory without copying something, and even if you did, I wouldn't assume that you understood what you copied-and-pasted. I would also be surprised if you could paraphrase the citation.

Feel free to prove me wrong, but we both know that isn't going to happen, and if I'm correct, isn't it useful for you to recognize that and adapt either your methods or your opinions so that they match? That change your methods so that "I understand" becomes accurate if you can or change your message to "People who understand this theory tell me that I don't, and since I can't explain it, they must be correct."

What demeans you is to be so unknowing of yourself.
scientists are able to closely examine many aspects of biological mechanisms which they were not able to do years ago. While fascinating to some, it does not mean it verifies the theory of evolution.
Now I'll retract 1% of what I've said seeing that for the first time, you didn't use the words proof or prove. Can you retain that as a habit of thought? Can you possibly never make that error again? If so, you've show positive evidence that you can learn at least one fact.

I'm really not trying to bully you here. The opposite. These words are carefully considered, sincerely believed, and constructively offered. I'm being a friend in the slender hope that I can help you. Going from prove to verify wasn't due to my words alone, although I frequently commented on it. But so did a dozen others, and for months if not years before I saw what I just saw: prove became verify.

But a dozen people over a dozen dozen posts finally broke through. Now let's see if can avoid relapsing. I'm on your side.
Even the best crafted theory must be modeled by each observer and no two models are identical.
You spend a lot of effort in that area of mental models, but I don't know why. The scientific models which are much more agreed open than disputed work. My personal model of reality is likely unique or rare like everybody else's, but it works in the main, and when it stops working, as soon as I notice and develop a solution, I modify that mental map accordingly. That map needs to reflect the terrain (reality as experienced) just like a literal map needs to correlate with the roads.

How about your mental maps? Are they getting you to your desired destination? Does this view of how things are and how they work serve you? If so, you should be able to say how, You should be able to identify whatever beneficial outcome follows from them.
"Sound" is an abstraction
The word is an abstraction. Its referent is not. The word refers to the collection of reproducible experiences understood and referred to as hearing and the quality they all have in common: being audible.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Funny you should say that. Do you really believe that or are you just being friendly? I can't find anything of value there. You surely don't mean that there is a lesson on treating others in the story of the kids left alone with the snake, choosing knowledge of good and evil over unquestioning obedience, and then they and all of their descendants punished severely for that.
You have to do some rather severe cherry picking, but there are some good lessons in it. I would say that it is a rather small percentage of the Bible. The good news, Christians already cherry pick their Bible. Now we just have to figure out how to get them to do so in a productive manner.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
In short nobody seems to have solved Agrippa's Trilemma and Descartes' evil demon. Combine those and you can understand how there is no proof or truth, but rather the axiomatic assumptions as per methodlogical naturalism for knowledge.

I have simply adopted the axiom that reality is exactly as it appears to people. If I'm wrong then it follows I'm wrong about everything, even more wrong than Darwin.

The trilemma I "solved" by assuming everyone makes sense all the time relative his assumptions so, of course, I have come to the "conclusion" our species can only reason circularly; homo circularis rationatio. Everything derives from my assumptions just like our entire species. The difference is one of my axioms is that there is one immutable reality. And from this it follows that consciousness is life itself.

Maybe I'm wrong but if Egyptology can pencil whip 6 1/2 million tons then I can pencil whip a few abstractions.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I have simply adopted the axiom that reality is exactly as it appears to people. If I'm wrong then it follows I'm wrong about everything, even more wrong than Darwin.

The trilemma I "solved" by assuming everyone makes sense all the time relative his assumptions so, of course, I have come to the "conclusion" our species can only reason circularly; homo circularis rationatio. Everything derives from my assumptions just like our entire species. The difference is one of my axioms is that there is one immutable reality. And from this it follows that consciousness is life itself.

Maybe I'm wrong but if Egyptology can pencil whip 6 1/2 million tons then I can pencil whip a few abstractions.

Okay, if it works for you, then good for you.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
I have simply adopted the axiom that reality is exactly as it appears to people. If I'm wrong then it follows I'm wrong about everything, even more wrong than Darwin.

The trilemma I "solved" by assuming everyone makes sense all the time relative his assumptions so, of course, I have come to the "conclusion" our species can only reason circularly; homo circularis rationatio. Everything derives from my assumptions just like our entire species. The difference is one of my axioms is that there is one immutable reality. And from this it follows that consciousness is life itself.

Maybe I'm wrong but if Egyptology can pencil whip 6 1/2 million tons then I can pencil whip a few abstractions.
You haven't shown that Darwin is wrong. Repeating that claim with every post or every other post doesn't make it so.

You done nothing to get anyone to consider Darwin was wrong.

There is no taxonomic nomenclature that refers to humans as homo circularis rationatio. That is your own term with your own personal definition. It is meaningless and doesn't fit with taxonomy. The genus Homo sapiens was established by Linnaeus in 1758 for the existing species. He beat you and backed it up too. That it is based on the existing species means that Homo sapiens couldn't have died out a few thousand years ago or 40,000 years or whatever date your religious position dictates.

The claim "Everything derives from my assumptions just like our entire species" doesn't make any sense. Your conclusions about consciousness do not arise from your premises. Plus, how you seem to be claiming that it is a logical conclusion and not one based on experiment or evidence. You are going all different directs at once and not hitting anything.

It all seems like the concerns of a religious position of revealed truth. Nothing scientific about it.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
You spend a lot of effort in that area of mental models, but I don't know why. The scientific models which are much more agreed open than disputed work.

No... They seem to coincide more closely because they all use the same vocabulary. The difference can be seen in the predictions they make. They can be seen in explanations of events and they can be seen in the calculations that are used. 3% of physicists can not correctly predict if a plane can take off from a conveyor belt. This is simple mechanics and 3% make the exact same errors as half of average men and most aviation engineers, mechanics, and pilots.

If the models were identical there would be agreement. Try asking two different physicists to explain the nature of an atom. Some can't even put it in laymen's terms because they can only speak of probabilities. Some include vast amounts of empty space and some see only the forces they believe are operating.

Again experts have less differences in the models but no two are alike.

So anytime someone is telling you what's what it does matter what book they read or what teacher they had. It matters whether any of the knowledge is experiential or derived from thought rather than rote learning. It matters whether they are induction or deduction. Even where models are virtually identical it still matters whether the individual is an atheist or a Buddhist. We each see what we believe no matter how right we know we are.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Okay, if it works for you, then good for you.

Just like all theory mine are still dependent on every definition, axiom, and experiment. Indeed, mine are also dependent on ancient scientific theory to the limited degree I understand that.

We can only reason circularly but I know why I got to the answers I did. I can retrace the circle I've followed.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
No... They seem to coincide more closely because they all use the same vocabulary. The difference can be seen in the predictions they make. They can be seen in explanations of events and they can be seen in the calculations that are used. 3% of physicists can not correctly predict if a plane can take off from a conveyor belt. This is simple mechanics and 3% make the exact same errors as half of average men and most aviation engineers, mechanics, and pilots.

If the models were identical there would be agreement. Try asking two different physicists to explain the nature of an atom. Some can't even put it in laymen's terms because they can only speak of probabilities. Some include vast amounts of empty space and some see only the forces they believe are operating.

Again experts have less differences in the models but no two are alike.

So anytime someone is telling you what's what it does matter what book they read or what teacher they had. It matters whether any of the knowledge is experiential or derived from thought rather than rote learning. It matters whether they are induction or deduction. Even where models are virtually identical it still matters whether the individual is an atheist or a Buddhist. We each see what we believe no matter how right we know we are.
Here's an idea.

List the assumptions Darwin used to formulate the theory of evolution. Then demonstrate how they are all false.

How bout that?
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Just like all theory mine are still dependent on every definition, axiom, and experiment. Indeed, mine are also dependent on ancient scientific theory to the limited degree I understand that.
Demonstrate this ancient scientific theory.
We can only reason circularly but I know why I got to the answers I did. I can retrace the circle I've followed.
No. Not everyone reasons in circles. No one knows why you have the answers you come up with. There is nothing offered on which a person can know what you are talking about.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Never once have you supported your claims regarding consciousness, nor defined terms or shown any experiments.

#8916

 

cladking

Well-Known Member
List the assumptions Darwin used to formulate the theory of evolution. Then demonstrate how they are all false.

You can find dozens of them here;

 

cladking

Well-Known Member
List the assumptions Darwin used to formulate the theory of evolution. Then demonstrate how they are all false.

You can find dozens of them here;

 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
#8916

No. Just more nebulous claims that consciousness is this or that, but no reason to consider it this or that.

Statements like "consciousness is life" are just claims attempting to render the claim as truth by fiat.

What is homo omnisciencis? It isn't a species recognized in the literature. Another imagined species based on a personal taxonomy for secret reasons known only to you.

I don't know of any valid reason anyone could accept this without questions being answered or reasons given. But you do none of that. You just double (triple, quadruple...to infinity and beyond) down and repeat.

If these things you claim are so and you understand them to be valid, then there should be no trouble explaining it all to others. Yet, that never happens.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
You can find dozens of them here;

Not even one. And they are not invisible to people. That excuse won't fly for you.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No... They seem to coincide more closely because they all use the same vocabulary. The difference can be seen in the predictions they make. They can be seen in explanations of events and they can be seen in the calculations that are used. 3% of physicists can not correctly predict if a plane can take off from a conveyor belt. This is simple mechanics and 3% make the exact same errors as half of average men and most aviation engineers, mechanics, and pilots.

If the models were identical there would be agreement. Try asking two different physicists to explain the nature of an atom. Some can't even put it in laymen's terms because they can only speak of probabilities. Some include vast amounts of empty space and some see only the forces they believe are operating.

Again experts have less differences in the models but no two are alike.

So anytime someone is telling you what's what it does matter what book they read or what teacher they had. It matters whether any of the knowledge is experiential or derived from thought rather than rote learning. It matters whether they are induction or deduction. Even where models are virtually identical it still matters whether the individual is an atheist or a Buddhist. We each see what we believe no matter how right we know we are.
You haven't identified a problem. You've implied that what you describe is problematic, but you'd need to actually describe the undesirable consequence of what you call a problem. It makes no difference that 3% of scientists can't answer a question like that. Nor with you other criticisms of formal science. All one can tell is that you dissent and declare problems for science - not what those problems are and why you call them problems.

Science works. Its only problems are ones it attempts to solve. It isn't causing problems. Antisocial capitalists and politicians are causing problems using the fruits of science, but they're the problem, not science.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
You can find dozens of them here;

Recall that I was also on that thread at the time and they were not presented then and they are not presented now.

If there are any that you can offer, there is no reason you cannot offer them now.

Telling me they are back somewhere, go and search is trying to get me to do your duty and job.

I didn't ask where you claim they are. I asked you to list them. That you cannot was the expected answer. That you did not is the experimental result.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
---

No. Not everyone reasons in circles. ....

I predict the following: If you want to reason as how your system of evidence is valid you will end up doing one or more of the 3 probleims in Agrippa's Trilemma.
Now this is not an absolute, because you can avoid it by not end up doing infinte regress, circular reasoning or dogmatic assertion.
In effect that is one of the limits to knowledge that no human in recorded history so far has solved.

Now you might be the first one to do so, but then again you might not.
So do that for your system of evidence and show it is valid and with reason and don't do any of the 3.

There is a reason, it is methodological naturalism. You really have to learn it is because there are limits to reasoning in effect. So learn your basic limits to knowledge and yes, that is philodophy.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
I predict the following: If you want to reason as how your system of evidence is valid you will end up doing one or more of the 3 probleims in Agrippa's Trilemma.
Now this is not an absolute, because you can avoid it by not end up doing infinte regress, circular reasoning or dogmatic assertion.
In effect that is one of the limits to knowledge that no human in recorded history so far has solved.

Now you might be the first one to do so, but then again you might not.
So do that for your system of evidence and show it is valid and with reason and don't do any of the 3.

There is a reason, it is methodological naturalism. You really have to learn it is because there are limits to reasoning in effect. So learn your basic limits to knowledge and yes, that is philodophy.
What I mean by reason in circles is: the claim is evidence supporting the validity of the claim. That is the example that is prevalent relative to claims like all change in all living things is sudden; consciousness is life, all of Darwin's assumptions are false; Ancient language; Ancient science; Babel 2.0; Homo omnisciencis and other imagined nomenclature with secret personal meaning. These are circled back on themselves in a continues rotation. They are not offered with support or explanation, but offered as fact as if they are revealed truth.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
No. Just more nebulous claims that consciousness is this or that, but no reason to consider it this or that.

You said I never defin4ed it but right there is the definition I provided. Arguing the definition is a semantical game. We could argue about the experiments and observations that led to the definition instead.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
All one can tell is that you dissent and declare problems for science - not what those problems are and why you call them problems.

Darwin is a problem.

An infinite number of pyramids built with an infinite number of ramps is a problem.

The 55,000,000 "unfit" human beings who died in WWII is a problem.


The gross inefficiency of the economy and that it rewards only a few is a problem. The evil experiment being imposed on the planet to enrich the few might be a problem that our children suffer for generations to come. Chaos runs rampant and manifests as war, famine, disease and wholesale murder is the problem caused by 19th century nonsense.
 
Top