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Atheists believe in miracles more than believers

cladking

Well-Known Member
Another example. You claim that Homo sapiens are extinct for thousands of years when the species was only described 250 years ago based on the existing species. It doesn't make sense to claim that we are extinct, when we are here now. Then you create your own taxonomy with a secret definition and use it as if it has some widely recognized meaning. What does that communicate? To me it communicates a lack of understanding and a flight of fantasy that has no value in science.

You are insisting on parsing my words according to your definitions and beliefs. You assume I don't make sense and then parse the words so they don't make sense.

Even though every rabbit is an individual and "rabbits" is an abstraction and doesn't exist, rabbits still do exist. Some things are difficult to separate into "rabbit" and "not-rabbit" and this is one of the reasons "rabbits" doesn't exist. For example one of the sudden changes in life is in the birthing process. At exactly what point does one rabbit turn into two? How ironic that no matter how you define this there is still no such thing as "two" either because no two things exist. The mother and baby are very different and the baby isn't even a viable individual without the mother. Even then it can not reproduce until it suddenly becomes sexually mature.

You are mistaking reductionistic science for reality and can not see its limitations. When you see things that are real yet can't be reduced to experiment or even defined (like consciousness) you just paint it over with a word and your own belief system. Then people don't even notice that the meaning of the word evolves (changes in fits and starts) over many many year. When I was a baby people didn't even believe babies were conscious and that they act on instinct. Now some people even believe dogs and whales are conscious. Soon enough as REAL SCIENCE comes to grips with experiment it will be believed that even single celled organisms are conscious. Everything alive is conscious and everything that is conscious is alive because it is consciousness that creates the experience that will keep that baby rabbit alive long enough to become sexually mature and suddenly give its mother a grandrabbit.

Such is all observed nature of life. You can't step into the same river twice because it is impossible and just as rivers suddenly change their courses and rise and fall with the rain life and "species" suddenly change as well.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
I find this last line interesting. What would make you think that humans of the ancient Egyptian variety were a different species. In a related questions, if you don't believe in species, why would you bother to claim that ancient Egyptians were a different species. That doesn't make any sense and contradicts the claim of disbelief in species.

I encourage you to read some general texts in biology and learn the facts about the things you believe. If you went into the reading with an open mind, I am certain you will be surprised what you find. And it would help you understand these debates and discussions.

Ancient Egyptians didn't think like us. It is just this simple.

Writing was invented in 3200 BC but recorded history didn't start until 1400 years later in 1800 BC. It is ridiculous to believe writing wasn't used to write stuff down. It was written down. Everything known by homo sapiens was written down for posterity. It isn't gone because the media didn't survive as proven by the existence of papyrus from 3200 BC found in a tomb. But it was blank. Homo omnisciencis circularis rationatio (all knowing man whom reason in circles)(our species) history begins far far later because the earlier writing from before the change in language can still not be translated. This language was a metaphysical language that was binary, representational, and universal that homo sapiens used to invent agriculture using the "Theory of Change in Species". Of course their theories can't really be translated either but this is the closest we can come. They understood the nature of sudden change in life and used it to invent dogs, crops, and livestock.

They were very very very very different than we are or any Egyptologist. But this difference existed in their thinking and perceptions rather than anatomically. The difference was very natural because they used the exact same kind of science that bees and beavers use; natural science based on observation and the logic of the wiring of the brain. Homo sapien brains were operated differently because of a very tiny anatomical difference: They had only a single speech center called the wernicke's area. In order to learn language each of us must grow a second speech center which operates the brain in an entirely different mode. It might be more clear to say that we don't so much grow a brocas area as that all required wiring needed to learn modern symbolic language tends to occur in a tiny area of the inferior frontal gyrus. Just as a blind person's learning of braille usually occurs in the visual cortex at the back of the brain.

Life and reality are complicated. Deal with it. Science as well has become rather complex but people aren't dealing with that either. They ignore experiment and ignore every anomaly.


One thing that isn't complex is ancient science. It's more complex than a waggle dance because homo sapiens had a complex language that allowed the generational accumulation of knowledge but bees do not. This complexity of language arose suddenly as well in 40,000 BC. It was most likely a mutation in proto-humans (homo proto sapiens?) that tied the wernickes area more closely to higher brain functions. It allowed users to observe their own consciousness better and to invent more words and more observations.

Ancient science is simply looking at reality from the outside instead of the inside while viewing knowledge from the inside. I'm making some progress in understanding it but it is difficult to see things from such a perspective. It progressed very differently than reductionistic science because there were no experiments and even setting up observation was avoided. It flowed naturally based on what had come before. It began and ended holistically and failed only because its basis, its metaphysics (the language itself) became geometrically more complex as learning improved arithematically. At first (~3500 BC) it was only a few dolts who couldn't learn the language properly but every year there were more and more who had no choice but to use a pidgin form of the universal language until by 3200 they needed to invent writing to communicate since these pidgin languages were so "confused". By 2000 BC there were no longer enough Ancient Language speakers (remember homo sapiens with one speech center) to even operate the state so Ancient Language failed and human history was lost.

Reality is far more exotic than science believers can imagine and ancient science was very complex. But then the waggle dance is probably orders of magnitude more complex than we understand. We don't even know that bees are conscious and that they use this consciousness all the time and make decisions that are best for themselves and the hive.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Such is all observed nature of life. You can't step into the same river twice because it is impossible and just as rivers suddenly change their courses and rise and fall with the rain life and "species" suddenly change as well.

Life and reality are the same thing just as most biologists believe. Life is reality on steroids. Life is reality with free will. Life is free will made possible through the "miracle" of consciousness.

We are out of the loop because we see not what is there before our eyes but rather what is behind our eyes. We are like this because our language and mode of brain operation is confused and has been confused for 4000 years.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Obviously, if something genuinely 'just is', then it wouldn't have a reason. It would be a 'brute fact'.

And if you're about to bring in the idea of a 'necessary entity', I've had that argument a number of times and nobody has yet managed to make it make logical sense.

You might be interested in this: Why Is There Something, Rather Than Nothing? (pdf)

Of a 'necessary entity', the key point it makes is:

"The skeptics seem to be on firm ground; as Hume emphasized, there is no being whose non-existence would entail a logical contradiction, and we have no difficulty in conceiving of worlds in which no such being existed."

From the link, bottom page 13:
"...
Nevertheless, it seems reasonable that most intelligent observers would find themselves in
worlds that were much less profligate with matter and energy than ours is, in a version of
the Boltzmann Brain problem. The safest tentative conclusion to draw is that the properties
of our particular universe cannot be solely attributed to the fact that intelligent observers
exist within it, even if some particular properties may be."
Can you explain what that means in other words?
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
From the link, bottom page 13:
"...
Nevertheless, it seems reasonable that most intelligent observers would find themselves in
worlds that were much less profligate with matter and energy than ours is, in a version of
the Boltzmann Brain problem. The safest tentative conclusion to draw is that the properties
of our particular universe cannot be solely attributed to the fact that intelligent observers
exist within it, even if some particular properties may be."
Can you explain what that means in other words?
Sorry, but I don't understand what you don't understand. :shrug:
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Sorry, but I don't understand what you don't understand. :shrug:

Can you rephrase that: "...
Nevertheless, it seems reasonable that most intelligent observers would find themselves in
worlds that were much less profligate with matter and energy than ours is, in a version of
the Boltzmann Brain problem. ..."

English is not my first language and I am not certain that I understand it.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Can you rephrase that: "...
Nevertheless, it seems reasonable that most intelligent observers would find themselves in
worlds that were much less profligate with matter and energy than ours is, in a version of
the Boltzmann Brain problem. ..."

English is not my first language and I am not certain that I understand it.

Okay, I'll try, it's in the context of the anthropic principle, and is pointing out that many imaginable worlds in which conscious observers could exist would be much simpler than the universe we find ourselves in.

Basically the point of the whole paper seems to be that all the proposed answers to the question in the title have serious problems.

The final words:

Perhaps at bottom [the universe's] existence and specific features include brute facts that are in some sense completely arbitrary; or perhaps there is a deeper principle that explains why it is precisely this universe, and the only brute fact is the validity of that principle. We are always welcome to look for deeper meanings and explanations. What we can’t do is demand of the universe that there be something we humans would recognize as a satisfactory reason for its existence.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Okay, I'll try, it's in the context of the anthropic principle, and is pointing out that many imaginable worlds in which conscious observers could exist would be much simpler than the universe we find ourselves in.

Basically the point of the whole paper seems to be that all the proposed answers to the question in the title have serious problems.

The final words:

Perhaps at bottom [the universe's] existence and specific features include brute facts that are in some sense completely arbitrary; or perhaps there is a deeper principle that explains why it is precisely this universe, and the only brute fact is the validity of that principle. We are always welcome to look for deeper meanings and explanations. What we can’t do is demand of the universe that there be something we humans would recognize as a satisfactory reason for its existence.

Thanks, it makes sense.

To me, "... many imaginable worlds in which conscious observers could exist would be much simpler than the universe we find ourselves in. ..." reminds me of the idea of Boltzmann Brain universes.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Because unlike God the universe begin to excist .... ths is a relevant difference given that premise 1 begin the KCA is limited to things that begin to excist ..... and this exception is not limited to God....anything that didn't begin is inmune to the conclusion of the KCA.... therefore no SP

That doesn’t make sense.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
From the link, bottom page 13:
"...
Nevertheless, it seems reasonable that most intelligent observers would find themselves in
worlds that were much less profligate with matter and energy than ours is, in a version of
the Boltzmann Brain problem. The safest tentative conclusion to draw is that the properties
of our particular universe cannot be solely attributed to the fact that intelligent observers
exist within it, even if some particular properties may be."
Can you explain what that means in other words?
My guess is that all he is saying is that there is a whole lot more than the minimum if the object of the universe was just to have an intelligent observer.
I guess I could further reduce it to it seems unlikely that it was just made for us.
That said, I put the whole thing into the category of unusually coherent 2 AM ramblings.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
What a first cell is remains a mystery despite two requests.
Scientists don't know what the "first cell" was either. They think maybe it came about as follows...
"How life originated and how the first cell came into being are matters of speculation, since these events cannot be reproduced in the laboratory. Nonetheless, several types of experiments provide important evidence bearing on some steps of the process." The Origin and Evolution of Cells - The Cell - NCBI Bookshelf
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
We - as in biologists, particularly those in paleontology field, so i probably should use word “they” instead of “we” - so, I will begin again.

They already know that earlier phylum, orders and classes of the domain Bacteria, have existed billions of years before animals and plants and fungi.

Fossilisation of microorganisms of Bacteria and of Archaea are much harder to find, but they do exist, fossilised in microbial mats of stromatolites. Stromatolites are layers of sedimentary formations.

Among the oldest Precambrian stromatolites are found in Greenland and in Western Australia, as the oldest evidence of life. Because there were no free oxygen molecules in the earlier atmosphere - the prebiotic atmosphere - these bacteria & archaea would have been of sulfide-reducing microorganisms, meaning they were anaerobic organisms, that don’t required oxygen for growth and energy. They differed from most modern bacteria and archaea, as many of them are now aerobic.

The oldest stromatolites are about 3.7 billion years old.

What they don’t know yet, was how these cells in the first place. Biologists already know that every cell contained at the very least 4 essential biological macromolecules are nucleic acids, proteins, carbohydrates & lipids. Abiogenesis is as much as about these macromolecules.

That‘s what Abiogenesis are for, a hypothesis that would provide insights how the earliest cells form.

Abiogenesis required knowledge in chemistry, biochemistry, molecular biology, microbiology, bacteriology, atmospheric chemistry, geochemistry, and anything else related to any of these fields.
So that's the problem:
"How life originated and how the first cell came into being are matters of speculation, since these events cannot be reproduced in the laboratory."
I guess they might need a primordial messy soup or a meteor to replicate or "reproduce" the process as to what they speculate.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
So that's the problem:
"How life originated and how the first cell came into being are matters of speculation, since these events cannot be reproduced in the laboratory."
In correct.
"haven't been reproduced in the laboratory"
There's no law of physics prohibiting eventual success.

However, at least there are experiments to explore
how abiogenesis could've occurred. This is more
than Christians do to verify their creation myths.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I have followed the research over the years and I believe we have a good explanation of how the Egyptians built the pyramids. All the questions have not been resolved, but ramps and other features found in the pyramids show the basics of using a ramp system used in the pyramids. Specialized carving and other crafts communities have been found near the pyramids.
So people obviously (in my mind) built the pyramids. They didn't have electricity then. Even though people harnessed electricity later to use in machines. Since I believe in the existence of an Almighty God, I believe He allowed men to build the pyramids and also harness electricity later on.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
In correct.
"haven't been reproduced in the laboratory"

However, at least there are experiments to explore
how abiogenesis could've occurred. This is more
than Christians do to verify their creation myths.
Yeah, I thought someone would think they did replicate the emergence of life in the laboratory...so what happened to these tests and tubes the chemicals were put in? Is it still growing? If I recall, it was some kind of blue fuzz algae or something like that which emerged. Were they the chemicals that began life as we see it? Well, speculate away. (Enjoy...)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
In correct.
"haven't been reproduced in the laboratory"
There's no law of physics prohibiting eventual success.

However, at least there are experiments to explore
how abiogenesis could've occurred. This is more
than Christians do to verify their creation myths.
By the way, go argue with The Origin and Evolution of Cells - The Cell - NCBI Bookshelf them they're wrong, and you know the first cells have been reproduced in the laboratory if that's what you think, go ahead.
 
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