Atheists believe in miracles more than believers

[ratiocinator]

In other words we can agree on that the universe has a “reason” (which according ratiocinator means cause in tensless language)

And leave the question on whether if God has a reason or not, for a future discussion…………….my ability or inability to support that god doesn’t have a “reason” has no bearing in the previous claim (in red)

Special pleading and baseless assumptions.

We actually can't agree that the universe has a reason, but it's a more reasonable question to ask, than time-based causality. The sensible thing would be to leave that until some 'future discussion', when we might have a clue, like after we get a theory of everything, for example.

The problem is that when we ask about reasons, we have a basic logical problem. Either we have to arbitrarily stop somewhere (a brute fact), face an infinite regress, or are left with some sort of circularity.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

If you reject the claim that God is the best alternative………….then tacitly you are claiming that there is at least one better alternative. (which means that you have a burden proof)

If you don’t reject that claim……….then ok the conversation is over….there is nothing to add

No, I don't know any version of best for a we.
I have a version for me, which could be worse for you and so in reverse.
In short for burden of proof it is generally considered objective, but I can't do good or bad objectively so burden of proof doesn't apply.
Best is subjective as it has no objective referent. It refers to how a given person think/feel as best have no external sensory properties.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No -- the universe conforms to the definition of "natural," so it's natural. It's origins and full working details are what's in question.

Now you have to explain what you mean by the universe and natural.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Be nice -- let's not hold his youth and inexperience against him.

And I won't hold against you that you are an old fart, who can't doubt.

 

[PureX]

Pascal's wager? Seriously?

There are benefits to many people in this live from living via faith in a higher power. Billions of people will attest to this, but you will ignore it, of course.

 

[PureX]

I don't think your using the term correctly. I suspect you don't know what logic is.

And I suspect you desperately want me to be wrong. Yet so far, after many such accusations, you cannot seem to come up with any logical reason to assume that I am.

 

[PureX]

Not everyone is seeking benefit. Some of us are simply seeking truth, regardless of utility.

That's total BS. Everyone is looking to control their own fate. And we humans do that by learning how to control our circumstances, and control ourselves in relation to those circumstances. "Truth" is just the measure of our ability to do that. It's also why science has become the new "higher power" for a lot of people. Including you.

 

[ratiocinator]

And I suspect you desperately want me to be wrong. Yet so far, after many such accusations, you cannot seem to come up with any logical reason to assume that I am.

Actually, several people have shown your 'logic' is flawed. So far, you haven't seriously addressed any of the objections.

 

[ratiocinator]

Everyone is looking to control their own fate.

And many have come to the conclusion that critical, logical, and evidence based thinking is the best way to navigate the world. It reduces one's susceptibility to being controlled by charlatans, snake oil salesmen, and would be dictators.

 

[PureX]

Gotcha. Jeez, did the first few hypotheses all have children with each other in one hot sweaty unproven orgy?



I agree with you that there are no consequences to either accepting, rejecting, or not answering the claim that god exists. God is irrelevant, just as I thought. It's only about warm fuzzy belly feels after all.

That's not what I posted.

The very real consequence is who you are, and who you are becoming because of how you are responding to the realization that a conscious higher power is a logical possibility. If you don't believe it, just look at your own post, and at the condescending disregard it shows toward those who find meaning and purpose in their faith in their God. See who your choice is causing you to become.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

And many have come to the conclusion that critical, logical, and evidence based thinking is the best way to navigate the world. It reduces one's susceptibility to being controlled by charlatans, snake oil salesmen, and would be dictators.

And yet, there is no evidence for what makes something the best as far as I can tell, as best has no objective referent with evidence.
And no, it is not solipsism and all that. It is in effect for meta-ethics the hurrah/boo theory.

 

[PureX]

Actually, several people have shown your 'logic' is flawed. So far, you haven't seriously addressed any of the objections.

If I ignored them, it's because they were posting stupid nonsense.

There are a couple posters here that are not intellectually or emotionally mature enough to even participate in this discussion. Yet they want to interject their silly insults, anyway, like petulant children. It's a waste of time responding to them. So I don't bother.

 

[PureX]

And many have come to the conclusion that critical, logical, and evidence based thinking is the best way to navigate the world. It reduces one's susceptibility to being controlled by charlatans, snake oil salesmen, and would be dictators.

Those are useful tools, but we have others that are useful as well. Only a fool would ignore those others and worship those few just so they could pretend to themselves that they are smarter than everyone else.

And only a fool thinks this is about anything other than utility in pursuit of being able to control our own fate. We all want to be the God of our own existence. But we aren't. And this is what is driving both theism AND atheism (and science, too).

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

If I ignored them, it's because they were posting stupid nonsense.

There are a couple posters here that are not intellectually or emotionally mature enough to even participate in this discussion. Yet they want to interject their silly insults, anyway, like petulant children. It's a waste of time responding to them. So I don't bother.

Yeah, this is where we don't agree as how to understand other humans.

The debate of what in effect ends in the idea of how to live a good life in this apparent reality has nothing to do with religion or not. Or science or not. Or logic or not.
But then I accept in effect the non-objective anti-realism non-truth version of what good and bad is.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Those are useful tools, but we have others that are useful as well. Only a fool would ignore those others and worship those few just so they could pretend to themselves that they are smarter than everyone else.

And only a fool thinks this is about anything other than utility in pursuit of being able to control our own fate. We all want to be the God of our own existence. But we aren't. And this is what is driving both theism AND atheism (and science).

I think that you sometimes use a we that maybe is not there.

 

[PureX]

Yeah, this is where we don't agree as how to understand other humans.

The debate of what in effect ends in the idea of how to live a good life in this apparent reality has nothing to do with religion or not. Or science or not. Or logic or not.
But then I accept in effect the non-objective anti-realism non-truth version of what good and bad is.

I am not trying to understand them. I want to help them understand themselves. In spite of their willful ignorance.

 

[PureX]

I think that you sometimes use a we that maybe is not there.

Oh, it's there. Everyone likes to think they are terminally unique, but we aren't. We are all stupid humans, doing stupid human stuff. All the days of our lives. With minute, extraordinary, and rare momentary exceptions here and there.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I am not trying to understand them. I want to help them understand themselves. In spite of their willful ignorance.

Oh, it's there. Everyone likes to think they are terminally unique, but we aren't. We are all stupid humans, doing stupid human stuff. All the days of our lives. With minute, extraordinary, and rare momentary exceptions here and there.

Well, we don't agree. And I am going to leave it at that. Make of it what you want.

 

[Nakosis]

The truth is far greater than you or I will ever know.

Sure, maybe someday intelligent life will discovery it. In the mean time no sense in worrying about it since we will never know it.

Because perception is conception. And our conceptions can be quite wrong.

As long as they work consistently. That's the only important thing I see. Only if they stop working is there a problem.

And your compass needs some more dimensions added to it. The truth is 'what is'. It's everything everywhere all the time. It's in us and around us and apart from us. What we "see" is not truth. It's just a very, very limited slice of truth that we then interpret as we choose. And often quite wrongly.

My compass will get me where I need to go. It may not be the most direct route but to me it's the journey that's important not the destination.

You can't verify ANY reality. But you don't understand this yet.

I can verify what works in the reality I perceive and what doesn't. That's enough for me.
If it's something I can't perceive then I don't see much need to worry about it anyway.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...

I can verify what works in the reality I perceive and what doesn't. That's enough for me.
If it's something I can't perceive then I don't see much need to worry about it anyway.

That depends on what you consider that reality to be.