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Atheists believe in miracles more than believers

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Yeah, but that health is good, is not objective.

There you go again, changing what is being talked about.

Anyway, if you prefer being sick over being healthy, then go for it.
Funnily enough, if you prefer being sick over being healthy, then not caring about medical science is the best way to accomplish that. :rolleyes:

I have seen no evidence that you even in effect understand the is-ought problem.
That's probably because we weren't talking about that. :shrug:
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
There you go again, changing what is being talked about.

Anyway, if you prefer being sick over being healthy, then go for it.
Funnily enough, if you prefer being sick over being healthy, then not caring about medical science is the best way to accomplish that. :rolleyes:


That's probably because we weren't talking about that. :shrug:

So you really don't understand the difference between there is a healthy life versus it is good to live a healthy life.
Further some part of healthy are mentally subjective and what is healthy to one person could be unhelathy to another.
Read some actual books on mental health care.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
So you really don't understand the difference between there is a healthy life versus it is good to live a healthy life.

I do. It just wasn't the topic.
It's just you again trying to once more go down the rabbit hole of the switch 'n bait.

No thanks.

Further some part of healthy are mentally subjective and what is healthy to one person could be unhelathy to another.
Read some actual books on mental health care.
Science books, right?
I bet you don't even see the irony there.


:rolleyes:
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
That's not what I posted.

The very real consequence is who you are, and who you are becoming because of how you are responding to the realization that a conscious higher power is a logical possibility.
It's not logical at all, this is your ongoing claim, and you continue to not provide any evidence. All you do is appeal to a tradition of belief that humans have adopted and passed on over thousands of years. Your lack of any logic, valid premises for the use of logic, is what we critics point out to you, yet you keep repeating the same error. That's illogical.

And you keep referring to these outrageous ideas as some sort of possibility. That means nothing since anything improbable idea can be asserted to be possible.
If you don't believe it, just look at your own post, and at the condescending disregard it shows toward those who find meaning and purpose in their faith in their God. See who your choice is causing you to become.
Who cares about meaning? You refer to logic and a possibility, and both of these require evidence and objective thinking. Meaning is subjective. So here you reveal your sloppy process, and how you blur meaning to what you want to be factually true and accepted as logical. Like other theists you fail to present the very thing that logic requires: facts and lucid reasoning.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
No. It's a waste of time and energy. The people that post that stuff are incapable of learning anything.
Since you tried to use logic and philosophy, and my post was about logical and philosophical objections, I conclude that can't answer and that it's you who are actually afraid of learning anything that might shake your fragile 'certainties'.

We are all biased and ignorant, but some of us understand this, and so are open to new ways of understanding things.
But not you, it would seem.

It's about using honesty and logic to examine what and how we are thinking. I can critique your assertions, but only you can dare to honestly determine if the criticism is valid, and what to change.
If you don't give me the chance, I can't. And it's kind of funny that you assume that it is me that needs to change. I'me open to logical arguments but all I've seen in your posts are flaws. Maybe if you explained better, I see why they aren't, but at the moment, your arguments don't appear to be either honest or logical.

This isn't a fight, or an argument. It's just a debate style conversation. No one has to agree or disagree. We share and we learn from logical critique. Or we don't.
True, but you seem so sensitive to criticism that you start ranting and insulting when people even question what you regard are logical. What does that say to you? Time for a bit of reflection, or "he must be stupid"?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
So then what ARE we pursuing when we foolishly believe and tell ourselves and others that we are seeking truth?
It includes the possibility that theists are completely wrong. You love possibilities, can you acknowledge this one?
"Working" at what? This is the question, the answer to which is defining us.
Rational humans are defined as critical thinkers who avoid the bias of cultural traditions of belief, like theism.
Even dumb animals can follow the instinct of their animal desires. Seems a waste of a human being, though, to live like dumb animals. We evolved to look deeper into existence then that for a reason. Seems the least we could do is fulfill our fate.
Humans are dumb animals. Just because we can form abstract thoughts does not mean there is a natural ability to reason well. Reasoning is skilled thinking, and has to be learned, which includes recognizing biases, and character flaws. We see every day how humans often make poor decisions and bad judgments. Let's note that the 9-11 hijackers had a very well established deep belief in their duty to God, and flew planes with innocent people into buildings. Their fate was fulfilled. But it was not reasoned, not wise, not virtuous in a way that humanism is. Your approach is highly flawed because it is so vague and broad that it includes suicide bombers. Reason is what puts the guardrails on the human temptation to believe in irrational ideas.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Since you tried to use logic and philosophy, and my post was about logical and philosophical objections, I conclude that can't answer and that it's you who are actually afraid of learning anything that might shake your fragile 'certainties'.
You didn't post any logical objections or alternatives. All you posted were empty accusations. As you just did again.
But not you, it would seem.
Of course I am. But the conversation doesn't even get there.
If you don't give me the chance, I can't. And it's kind of funny that you assume that it is me that needs to change. I'me open to logical arguments but all I've seen in your posts are flaws.
And you continue to fail to articulate them. Which makes it appear that you have no idea what your talking about and are instead just knee-jerk auto defending. Why can't you articulate your superior logical alternative proposition?
Maybe if you explained better, I see why they aren't, but at the moment, your arguments don't appear to be either honest or logical.
Maybe stop fighting, and try understanding. It's not an argument. It's a discourse.
True, but you seem so sensitive to criticism that you start ranting and insulting when people even question what you regard are logical. What does that say to you? Time for a bit of reflection, or "he must be stupid"?
When I onject to phony or flawed criticism it does not mean I am being sensitive. To that I am throwing tantrums. I am simply calling it as I see it posted.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
There are benefits to many people in this live from living via faith in a higher power. Billions of people will attest to this, but you will ignore it, of course.
Whoosh, the psychological benefits in belief in imaginary things is not the topic, nor is it Pascal's Wager.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
If I ignored them, it's because they were posting stupid nonsense.

There are a couple posters here that are not intellectually or emotionally mature enough to even participate in this discussion. Yet they want to interject their silly insults, anyway, like petulant children. It's a waste of time responding to them. So I don't bother.
Back to if you can't rebut it, just call it stupid nonsense. Like a petulant child?
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
You didn't post any logical objections or alternatives. All you posted were empty accusations. As you just did again.
If you can't see the logical objections and questions in post #3,724, then you simply don't understand what logic is. Try giving an example, maybe?

And you continue to fail to articulate them.
And you continue to fail to articulate them. Which makes it appear that you have no idea what your talking about and are instead just knee-jerk auto defending. Why can't you articulate your superior logical alternative proposition?
Wow. You do realise that I have posted detail and asked you questions, and your response is this? Projection or what?

I have, several times now, posted alternatives.

Maybe stop fighting, and try understanding. It's not an argument. It's a discourse.
It's rather difficult to have a discourse with somebody who simply ignores a detailed post, like #3,724, and just robotically repeats that I haven't articulated any logical objections. Almost like you'd like anything but a discourse....

When I onject to phony or flawed criticism it does not mean I am being sensitive. To that I am throwing tantrums. I am simply calling it as I see it posted.
When all you say is things like "you're stupid", "it's flawed", and "you haven't articulated any objections", with zero detail as to how you reached those conclusions, it looks much more like fear, anger, irritation, sensitivity, and tantrums, than any genuine desire to have a discourse. :shrug:
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
But "dark matter" is just a name for any of these Maaaaaany "explanations." Nobody's attributing any intentionality or qualities not already observed to it.
That is wrong; there are many alternatives to dark matter, and if any of these alternatives happens to be true, the DM hypothesis would be falsified

The observation:

gravitational effects which cannot be explained by general relativity unless more matter is present than can be seen.

Some alternatives are:

1 General Relativity is wrong

2 Scientists are not measuring the amount of matter correctly

3 Laws of gravity are different in other galaxies,

4 regular matter is producing the effect, dust, asteroids, black holes etc. (we just can´t detect it)

5 we live in a simulation, the observations are just glitches of this simulation

6 scientists are just lying and making up stuff in a big crazy conspiracy

7 Dark matter, there is a substance that has no light, nor energy, but it does has gravity that is causing this effect

We both agree on that 7 is the best alternative , My point is that anyone who disagrees and claims that 7 is not the best alternative, is expected to suggest an other alternative and sow that this alternative is better. Agree? (YES)

The same is true with any other hypothesis/theory/theorem/ecuation/ etc, anyone who claims that common ancestry is not the best explanation for genetic similarities, or that the heliocentric model is not the best, etc. is expected to provide an alternative agree? YES

So why are you making an arbitrary exception with the origin of the universe and God?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
No. We who don't accept the God-claim have no burden.
SO if I don’t accept the claim that DM is the best explanation for the gravitational effects , or if I don’t accept common ancestry as the best explanation for genetic similarities………….I have no burden? Is that what you are saying?.................is it really that simple?
 
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