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Atheists believe in miracles more than believers

gnostic

The Lost One
It is my understanding that the term “metric” is appropriate in this context , but if I´m wrong, I´m wrong ….. I have no problem in admitting my mistakes

you are wrong. You don’t understand metric, amend you don’t know know how, where & when metrics being used.

The important part of metric, are being able to measure physical objects, whether it be solid, liquid, gas or plasma, and ghosts don’t even applied...probably because they (ghosts) don’t exist, except perhaps because they are people’s active imagination, or they are deluded or they are lying.

there are no metrics for imagination, delusion or fraud, because you cannot measure them, so demanding for metrics that don’t even exist, is utterly pointless and ridiculous.

there are no evidence for ghosts. You cannot use any device to detect & MEASURE a ghost. There are absolutely no metrics that you applied to something that don’t exist.

You are wrong. And you don’t understand what metric is. If can admit your errors as you’ve claimed that you can, then ditch your stupid example and move on.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I think you may have that wrong but I'll look at the scriptures that use the word, Hebrew and English. What I read about unicorns is that in the middle ages or something like that there was an idea that the horn carried a potent medication and it was very expensive, but it was probably a rhinoceros's horn.

I don’t recall unicorns, but spirits, angels, demons, leviathan, dragons, these are mentioned, and they don’t exist.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
not strawman.

your examples were unclear. Unless you tell us exactly what you are measuring, you cannot use any metric.

and your last example, where you used ghosts in hypothesis A, are not something that you can actually measure. You cannot measure ghosts, so there are no possible metrics that you can used.

and testimonies are claims, and claims are not evidence, they are just words of someone’s opinions, and there are no metrics to be used on opinions.

you still don’t know what metrics are. All you’re doing is making up ridiculous scenarios, then demanding people to offer metrics.

there are no metric for people’s testimonials or claims. And there are no metrics for ghosts. You are being utterly absurd, & arrogant.
I am not claiming (nor rejecting) that testimonies are evidence……………………all I am asking is for a way to test if something counts as evidence or not.

Forget about god and ghost stuff for a moment ………. Generally speaking how can someone test objectively if given observation “A” counts as evidence for a given Hypothesis “X”

and testimonies are claims, and claims are not evidence

OK, So evidence is something that is not a claim……………what else? What else would you add to your definition of evidence such that one can measure objectively is something is evidence or not


I am accepting the challenge to provide evidence for God………….all I need are clear and objective rules on what counts as evidence before I provide such evidence……….why is this so hard and problematic for you ?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I don’t recall unicorns, but spirits, angels, demons, leviathan, dragons, these are mentioned, and they don’t exist.
I guess I didn't pay attention to other translations (in English, of course) that used the word unicorn. I do believe spirits exist, and these actually can include angels and demons. I know leviathan is mentioned and I can't remember exactly what it is likened to. Dragons, I don't know. Some scholars really do say that the word sometimes translated as unicorns may be something like some kind of oxen.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
not strawman.

your examples were unclear. Unless you tell us exactly what you are measuring, you cannot use any metric.

and your last example, where you used ghosts in hypothesis A, are not something that you can actually measure. You cannot measure ghosts, so there are no possible metrics that you can used.

and testimonies are claims, and claims are not evidence, they are just words of someone’s opinions, and there are no metrics to be used on opinions.

you still don’t know what metrics are. All you’re doing is making up ridiculous scenarios, then demanding people to offer metrics.

there are no metric for people’s testimonials or claims. And there are no metrics for ghosts. You are being utterly absurd, & arrogant.
Get ready for a long and drawn out conversation about why testimony is not a synonym for evidence, we went through it several months ago to no proper resolution. :(
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
you are wrong. You don’t understand metric, amend you don’t know know how, where & when metrics being used.

The important part of metric, are being able to measure physical objects, whether it be solid, liquid, gas or plasma, and ghosts don’t even applied...probably because they (ghosts) don’t exist, except perhaps because they are people’s active imagination, or they are deluded or they are lying.

there are no metrics for imagination, delusion or fraud, because you cannot measure them, so demanding for metrics that don’t even exist, is utterly pointless and ridiculous.

there are no evidence for ghosts. You cannot use any device to detect & MEASURE a ghost. There are absolutely no metrics that you applied to something that don’t exist.

You are wrong. And you don’t understand what metric is. If can admit your errors as you’ve claimed that you can, then ditch your stupid example and move on.
For the fourth time…….Strawman

Nobody is asking you to measure gohsts nor gods.



What you are being ask to do is to provide an objective way to determine if something counts as evidence or not

Form the point of view of semantics and vocabulary ……….It was my understanding that “objective way” can be substituted by “objective metric” in the sentence above without changing the meaning of the previous sentence in any relevant way………………..but if you claim that the word metric is not appropriate that is ok………..I do accept your claim (as native English speaker) as evidence
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I guess I didn't pay attention to other translations (in English, of course) that used the word unicorn. I do believe spirits exist, and these actually can include angels and demons. I know leviathan is mentioned and I can't remember exactly what it is likened to. Dragons, I don't know. Some scholars really do say that the word sometimes translated as unicorns may be something like some kind of oxen.
Unicorn simply means “one horn” so the unicorns mentioned in ancient texts (not sure if the bible) could be just some animal with one horn…………….some modern horses have a vestigial horn perhaps these type of horses where more common in ancient times.

The point is that ancient people didn’t define unicorn as “pink flying horse with rainbow powers” as we do in modern times
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Get ready for a long and drawn out conversation about why testimony is not a synonym for evidence, we went through it several months ago to no proper resolution. :(
You won’t find a single quote of me claiming (or implying) that testimony is synonym for evidence…………….is this evidence that you are a lire?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I am not claiming (nor rejecting) that testimonies are evidence……………………all I am asking is for a way to test if something counts as evidence or not.
Testimonies in the court of Law are considered evidence, but it most often does not stand alone without corroborating other evidence.


Objective evidence is data that can be proven through research, analysis, observation, or measurement, and is based on facts. It's more "black and white" than subjective evidence, which is based on opinion and self-reporting. Objective evidence is unbiased, quantifiable, and can be independently confirmed and verified using analytical or other tools.


Forget about god and ghost stuff for a moment ………. Generally speaking how can someone test objectively if given observation “A” counts as evidence for a given Hypothesis “X”
Independently predictable and verifiable facts and objects.
OK, So evidence is something that is not a claim……………what else? What else would you add to your definition of evidence such that one can measure objectively is something is evidence or not
Evidence is not a claim.. though a claim may be supported by evidence.

Evidence is an independent. tangible, verifiable observation or physical object that can independently determined.
I am accepting the challenge to provide evidence for God………….all I need are clear and objective rules on what counts as evidence before I provide such evidence……….why is this so hard and problematic for you ?
Evidence for God should be unbiased meeting the standards for objective evidence as previously defined.

You previously mention low-entropy in the early universe was evidence for God. This is a claim without specific evidence or explanation how low-entropy is evidence for the existence of God.

Low -entropy is the observe nature of a state of a stage in in the early formation and expansion of the universe. The low-entropy in the early universe is supported by the evidence of Physics.


The universe was born in a low-entropy state because of cosmic inflation, which caused entropy density to decrease. The universe's low entropy is also attributed to gravity and the uniform distribution of matter. In a system with gravity, like the universe, a low-entropy state is when matter is spread out, while a high-entropy state is when matter is collapsed into black holes.


The entropy of the universe is mostly encoded in the leftover radiation and neutrinos from the Big Bang. The entropy of the universe is so large that the entropy of the stars and galaxies we see today is negligible in comparison. This can make it seem like entropy changes significantly as structure forms, but that's just a coincidence.
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You won’t find a single quote of me claiming (or implying) that testimony is synonym for evidence…………….is this evidence that you are a lire?
Testimony is simply describing what you personally saw or heard or otherwise experienced, evidence of a particular event or state of affairs.

In legal contexts, testimony is such evidence given under oath.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Testimony is simply describing what you saw or heard or otherwise experienced, evidence of a particular event or state of affairs.

In legal contexts, testimony is such evidence given under oath.
Testimony as evidence has its limits. and most often does not stand alone. If someone testifies in court that they saw a ghost. I believe the testimony would not be accepted as evidence for the ghost.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
So what you are trying to imply is that if anyone states anything, it must be equally self-righteous to anyone else stating anything else? Or is this just some childish, "nut-huh, YOU did!"

I am sorry that you can't understand these things. Perhaps you should reserve comment until someday you can.

Or perhaps you could stop resenting anyone that posts anything that you can't understand.
Your response meets my expectations. You dole out criticism of everyone, but don't handle it at all well yourself. You make myriad judgements of others, attack anything that is related to science or the acceptance of it, but when questioned and challenged all that you seem capable of responding with is angry nonsense that amounts to "nut-huh, YOU did!"

Thanks for supporting my position. You have a wonderful day.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So what you are trying to imply is that if anyone states anything, it must be equally self-righteous to anyone else stating anything else? Or is this just some childish, "nut-huh, YOU did!"

I am sorry that you can't understand these things. Perhaps you should reserve comment until someday you can.

Or perhaps you could stop resenting anyone that posts anything that you can't understand.
The problem with the history of your posts is anyone that does not accept your belief and world view does not understand your belief and world view.

There is a severe egocentric problem with this line of reasoning.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Nonetheless the unicorn is a mythical figure described in the Bible and understood as that is what is described in both Judas and Christianity for over 2000 years, and depicted in pictures..
I checked so far two translations, interestingly enough, both the old King James Bible and the New King James.
Psalm 92:10 --
"King James Bible
But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil."
"New King James Version
But my horn You have exalted like a wild ox; I have been anointed with fresh oil."

The New King James Version says wild ox, the older one says unicorn.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The problem with the history of your posts is anyone that does not accept your belief and world view does not understand your belief and world view.

There is a severe egocentric problem with this line of reasoning.
Reasoning can be good with some people.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I do believe I have read some posters here either say they have seen ghosts or talk to them, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe I'll ask.
I am sure there are many many people, possibly some here who claim to see and possible talk to ghosts. The problem is the lack of confirmable objective evidence for such claims.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
You can't show that the brains were the same either.
I didn't make any claims about brains, ancient or otherwise, that require I show anything. The point that stands is that you claim things about brains without any evidence or reason to do so. You offer no evidence or reason to discuss your claims.
But I can show they said things like "the way goes over the flames under which the gods create." Far more ludicrous things than this came out of ancient brains. It's almost like they didn't think like us.
You have a translation of something that isn't 40,000 years old to my knowledge. It appears to be taken out of temporal and cultural context and from a putative translation of unknown validity. You don't bother to provide any provenance or citation for anyone to check it out for themselves.

If this is a valid translation of some written work of the last 5,000 years, I wouldn't expect it would reflect modern thinking, but I have no reason to conclude it supports anything you've claimed regarding your unevidenced "ancient language" of only a couple thousand words from 40,000 years ago.

It is meaningless as evidence to show us anything in support of your claims.
And exactly what supernatural or esoteric beliefs do you have?
It doesn't matter in this context. I didn't make your claims. I don't have the burden of proof to support them. Obviously you can't, even when you do hold that burden and duty.
And the irony being I'm the only one to have beliefs about the nature of religion, consciousness
You are not. Lots of people have beliefs about lots of things including religion and consciousness. What you have, and fail to do anything with, is the burden to validate and support your claims.
, beaver science,
Something not known or in evidence. Per usual. You certainly can have beliefs about it. But you have never substantiated those beliefs as more than what I consider to be nothing more than science, fan fiction.
and how the fossil recoird supports sudden change in species.
Except it doesn't.

You claim Darwin was wrong and all his assumptions are false, yet you refuse to name one of those assumptions or demonstrate a false state. At the same time, you seem to accept punctuated equilibrium that is a modification of the theory originally proposed by Darwin. It is a contradictory position without reason or explanation.

Not only that, but it indicates to me that you don't even understand punctuated equilibrium and that the observed changes seen in the fossil record followed by longer periods of stasis are not examples of sudden change. Suddenness of the change observed in the fossils is not indicated by the evidence. Thus, your claim can be rejected without further consideration. Since you don't bother to offer support for anything you claim, there isn't anything to discuss.

Punctuated equilibrium proposes that change is relatively quick, relatively, followed by extended periods of very little change, but not, no change. And the quick change isn't synonymous with sudden as that word is understood, but is seen to occur variably over periods up to half a million years. The fossil record does indicate that this occurs with some groups, but is not universal and the evidence of species like coelacanth support that it occurs where there is strict environmental stability for extensive periods of time.

Further, I would point out that your claim to accept punctuated equilibrium must be based on the acceptance of speciation. Another strange and contradictory condition given you claim not to believe species are real.

I can't see anything for us to discuss as long as you just make claims and then run off without bothering to support. You can continue to post what is clear in my mind is your belief system, but I have no interest in discussing what I find is a rather convoluted and seemingly illusory, syncretic belief system mixing science, religion and wild beliefs about things not in evidence.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I am sure there are many many people, possibly some here who claim to see and possible talk to ghosts. The problem is the lack of confirmable objective evidence for such claims.
We may have different beliefs, right? Some believe there are ghosts, while others do not. Do I believe there are ghosts? I believe there are unseen spirit persons that exist. Some good; some not good.
 
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