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Atheists believe in miracles more than believers

leroy

Well-Known Member
No, you are wrong because I explained to you why. If you did not understand then

I already justified my claim. 1. is not a hypothesis. It is a claim. A hypothesis has to be a testable explanation of some observation of nature. You lost the ability to demand support, you can look that up yourself.
A hypothesis has to be a testable
And I provided the test.

A different result in the test would have falsified the hypothesis

politely ask for help.
Was I impolite?

I am just asking you to provide justification ………….for example why isn’t the hypothesis testable?.............I am just asking for more than a “because I say so “ justification…………….is there anything impolite about that?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
And I provided the test.

A different result in the test would have falsified the hypothesis


Was I impolite?

I am just asking you to provide justification ………….for example why isn’t the hypothesis testable?.............I am just asking for more than a “because I say so “ justification…………….is there anything impolite about that?

You didn't provide as test as you actually didn't explain what should be observed to meet the predictions of what is observable by random or non-random.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Once again wrong. A hypothesis has to be a testable explanation. If you are not explaining anything you only have a claim. And what hypotheses are you claiming that I accepted?
you accepted these hypothesis as valid, despite the fact that they are only 1 sentence................. ( @gnostic disagrees, he claim that hypothesis cant be 1 sentence)

related to dark matter)
Explanation/hypothesis: there is a type of “substance” that is invisible but has a gravitational force

alternative hypothesis:
the stars are attached for some other reason that has nothign to do with gravity

A hypothesis has to be a testable explanation.
my hypotheiss was a testable explanation..............I even provided the test and the resoults of the test
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
You didn't provide as test as you actually didn't explain what should be observed to meet the predictions of what is observable by random or non-random.
Yes the test was the mathematical estimates provided my Roger Penrose.................................He calculated the probability of having low entropy at the big bang……………….given that the probability was so small this serves as evidence against “random chance did it” and in favor of “nonrandom mechanism” did it
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Yes the test was the mathematical estimates provided my Roger Penrose.................................He calculated the probability of having low entropy at the big bang……………….given that the probability was so small this serves as evidence against “random chance did it” and in favor of “nonrandom mechanism” did it

Yeah, that is not an observation as it stands.
Do you understand what as test based on observation means?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
And I provided the test.

A different result in the test would have falsified the hypothesis


Was I impolite?

I am just asking you to provide justification ………….for example why isn’t the hypothesis testable?.............I am just asking for more than a “because I say so “ justification…………….is there anything impolite about that?
You did not give an explanation. It was only a claim.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
you accepted these hypothesis as valid, despite the fact that they are only 1 sentence................. ( @gnostic disagrees, he claim that hypothesis cant be 1 sentence)

related to dark matter)
Explanation/hypothesis: there is a type of “substance” that is invisible but has a gravitational force

alternative hypothesis:
the stars are attached for some other reason that has nothign to do with gravity


my hypotheiss was a testable explanation..............I even provided the test and the resoults of the test
Yes, with some objections. Dark matter is a lot more than just the claim. Go back and look. I said something on the order of you being close.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You have that wrong. For instance, a scientist might look in a vial and see certain things. Therefore he sees what he sees.
You wrote, "they are going to look at what they consider to be evidence backing up their conjectures, but there is nothing that makes it true," and I answered, "Nothing for you, but not nothing for those educated in the science. You still seem to have no concept of what others can and do know. To you. all opinions are as uninformed as yours and therefore equal. Everything is conjecture to such a person."

You called me wrong but failed to rebut my claim. Of course a scientist sees what he sees just like you do, but his informed mind sees more. When a child looks at a star, all he sees is a point of light overhead. An informed observer sees so much more.
the theory of evolution is a claim
To you, but to the informed, it is much more than that. The theory has been confirmed correct beyond reasonable doubt. It isn't important that you know that, but responsible people ought to correct errors when they read them, so you should expect a response like this every time you make that claim. Maybe someday you'll get tired of reading words like these. That also doesn't matter. I'm fine with you doing what you do for whatever reason you do it, but as I said, I believe errors should be corrected.
I was not talking about "useful knowledge". I was talking about knowing the truth of things.
OK. That "truth" you seek is probably also useless. Suppose you knew for a fact that the deists are correct, and that an intelligent designer created the seed that then unfolded spontaneously in the universe we see today. Nothing changes. The information is useless.

Suppose you knew for a fact that libertarian free will did or did not exist. Nothing changes. The information is useless.

Once I realized these things, I stopped dwelling on them. It doesn't matter at all that I don't and can't have these answers.
None of this is relevant to the conversation
I thought it was. I was emphasizing that you also don't need those answers, because what really matters in daily life is practical knowledge - the ideas that allow us to shape some aspect of our conscious experience in a way that we prefer, and that these other issues are what is actually irrelevant.
But you continue to elude my point. What the writers of the Bible believed was a confusion of an ancient science that held reality existed and could be understood through logic and observation just like bees and beavers.
I don't believe that, but it is irrelevant to my claim that the Bible writers didn't know where the rain came from. You seemed to be trying to refute that with indecipherable references to the Tower of Babel and the words of ancient Egyptians.
By "linear" I mean continual; that each successive manifestation of human knowledge and omniscience is superior to previous manifestations.
Then why use the word linear? You would do well to find plainer language, assuming you want to be understood. You call continual progress linear progress, and you add ambiguity. You call natural "languages" metaphysical, and I can't tell what you mean.
I believe and can show evidence for, that there is no progress.
Not to me you can't, because I have seen the evidence that there IS progress. I've seen it in my own lifetime. I don't see how you make me unsee that nor understand what I saw differently.
The "progress" you and Darwin imagine is a unicorn because almost ever single caveman from 20,000 years ago was smarter and more knowledgeable than the vast majority of modern people.
There you go again with poetry where prose is more instructive. I have no idea what you mean by a unicorn here. Did you mean a fictional character?

Also, I reject the claim about cavemen.
How many times must I repeat that you can not navigate what you don't know?
You can repeat it as often as you like, but I disagree. You'll need to falsify my belief to change my mind, and once again, experience has taught me that I CAN navigate life effectively with the knowledge that I do have.
You are assuming you know everything about gravity because the earth causes a 32 ft/ s/ s acceleration. Until 15 years ago we knew nothing about it that cavemen didn't know.
No, I don't assume that I know everything about gravity, but I know what my dog knows about it (and more), and we both manage to understand it well enough. She knows that she will stick to the floor but also can jump up and then return to the floor, or that if she drops a piece of food, to look downward for it.
Since you can't decide reality any navigation you're doing is based on what you believe reality is.
OK. As I indicated to @PureX above, the knowledge that I have is enough to accomplish my goals. My belief set works for me.
I said a caveman could see the world was round. A bee knows the world is round.
I have no reason to believe either of those comments. Regarding using the word round for spherical, it's also ambiguous. A coin is round but also unlike a sphere, has flat surfaces. I suggest using words like circular and spherical. They're more descriptive (more specific) than round.
We instinctively see only what supports our beliefs and don't even know it because we disregard the experiments that prove it.
That's not been my experience, and doesn't describe most people I know, either.

And if one uses critical thought and empiricism exclusively as his path to knowledge, his beliefs are going to be largely correct. It's when one starts making decisions based in faith-based beliefs that the danger arises. Such people are the ones least likely to see that they are wrong, because they don't look to evidence or its proper evaluation to decide what's true. Look at the anti-vaxxers. Look at all the dead bodies at Jonestown Waco, and Heaven's gate. Look at all of the time and money some people invest in their god beliefs, some at the cost of a basic understanding of their world. So yes to your point for that cohort of humanity, but one can learn to avoid all of that, so no to it applying to all of us.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Yes, with some objections. Dark matter is a lot more than just the claim. Go back and look. I said something on the order of you being close.
My interpretation was, that the Dark matter example was good enough for you, that I grasped your concept of evidence correctly ………. If I am wrong then I am wrong ……….we can go back to the dark matter example a correct me if you think that I made a relevant mistake.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
I understand your reason. But I don't think gorillas have laboratories and devise medicine, some of which work and some do not. That's about where I leave it now except birds can flap there wings and fly away...

I think you're mistaking intelligence for superiority. We may well be the most intelligent species but the most superior would depend on the situation. (Even the most intelligent is debatable at times as this forum can attest)
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Also, I reject the claim about cavemen.

So you reject it. that was exactly my point that you reject cavemen being smarter and more knowledgeable than we are. You reject it despite having no evidence and your only reason being you assume that linear progress pertains. I show actual evidence but you reject the evidence, the logic, and the conclusion based on nothing but language; old wives' tales inherent in modern languages.

Before the invention of agriculture every individual had to be mentally fit and this included having sufficient knowledge to either live alone or to contribute to the community.

Do you really believe it would be hard to teach a caveman to go when the light turned green or to order an Xray for a compound fracture?
 
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